The Just Checking In Podcast

JCIP #367 - Firefighters Check-In

• The Just Checking In Podcast by VENT

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In episode 367 of The Just Checking In Podcast we checked back in with friends of the pod Dean Corney and Jason Reeves. 

Dean is a firefighter in the London Fire Brigade who has worked in the service for over 20 years. 

Dean is also the Co-Founder of Walk & Talk 999, a men's walking group in the UK for any man in the emergency services to walk and talk about their mental health, if they want to, and be met with empathy, trust and understanding.

Dean first came on the pod in JCIP #203 and again in JCIP #289. 

Jason Reeves is the Founder of Embers Woodcraft, a charity which offers bushcraft experiences, workshops and a range of other activities that bring people together and focus on the natural environment’s power to improve their mental health. 

Prior to Embers, Jason served in Kent Fire Brigade for 28 years at various stations in the county and retired from the Fire Service in May 2025. Jason came on the podcast in JCIP #289. 

We wanted to bring these men on not just because they’re both great men but also to have a holistic conversation about different elements of firefighting. 

This podcast will have a different structure to our usual pods and will be broken down into four parts: The Calling, The Bravery, The Watch and The Hurt. 

Dean and Jase are shining examples of how to overcome obstacles, own your mental health and how you can help other men through sharing your journey and experiences too.

As always, #itsokaytovent

You can find out more about Walk & Talk 999 here: https://www.walkandtalk999.co.uk/.

You can follow Walk & Talk 999 on social media below: 

You can find out more about Embers Woodcraft here: https://emberswoodcraft.co.uk/.

You can follow Embers on social media below: 

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SPEAKER_00

Hi Venters, welcome back to another episode of the Just Checking In Podcast. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. In each episode, I check in with a special guest. We have a Natter and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. In this special episode, I am bringing back two returning guests for a three-man check-in. Both these men are either serving or former firefighters who have come on the pod before. My first guest is Dean Corney, who is a firefighter in the London Fire Brigade who has worked in the service for over 20 years. Dean is also the co-founder of Walk and Talk 999, a men's walking group in the UK for any man in the emergency services to walk and talk about their mental health if they want to and be met with empathy, trust and understanding. Dean first came on the pod in JCIP 203 and again in JCIP 289. Because of this amazing work, Dean is now in a new role in the London Fire Services Wellbeing Service, heading up their new peer-to-peer support team and has stepped away from frontline firefighting. Walk and Talk 909 is on top of all of that work, so he is a very busy man now. My second guest is Jason Reeves, and he is the founder of Embers Woodcraft, a charity which offers bushcraft experiences, workshops and a range of other activities that bring people together and focus on the natural environment's power to improve their mental health. Prior to Embers, Jason served in Kent Fire Brigade for 28 years at various stations in the county and retired from the fire service in May 2025. Jason came on the podcast in JCIP 289. I wanted to bring these men back on not just because they're both great men in their own right, but also to have a holistic conversation about different elements of firefighting. This podcast will have a different structure to my usual pods and will be broken down into four parts. The calling, the bravery, the watch, and the hurt. Throughout the pod I will let the lads discuss amongst themselves and create a free-flowing and open conversation. And both of these lads absolutely love a chat, so that won't be hard. Dean and Jace are shining examples of how to overcome obstacles, own your mental health journey, and how you can help other men through sharing your journey and experiences too. So this is how my conversation with Dean Corney and Jason Reeves went. Jace, Dino, welcome back to the Just Checkin' In Pod. Thank you so much for letting me check back in with you. Dino is your hat-trick appearance. Jace is your second. It's been a bit of a long time since we've all checked in together, isn't it? It's been about a year and a half for you, Jace. Been about a year for you, Dino. It's always great to chat to you. And we had a lovely chat off air as well to start off with. How are you on this Sunday morning, lads? I'm all good, mate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm all good. I've just had my coffee. I'm ready to go, mate. I've taken all the abuse, so that's all come out of my system and stuff. So yeah, I'm alright now.

SPEAKER_01

Over to you, Dean. Yeah, cheers, mate. Thank you very kind. That was very um very polite for you, Jay. I'm impressed. I've been told. I've already been told. The warning, we've had the warnings. Yeah, well, I'm alright, mate. Yeah, it's always nice to catch up. You know, it's been uh quite a few years since we did our first original check-in, which is nice. Yeah, no, it's always good to catch up with you guys. Yeah, I'm doing all right, yeah. Tired, busy as always, but it's all positive stuff. I don't mind work being busy and tired as long as it's for a reason, so yeah, all good. Lovely. And Jace is already telling lies as well on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, we'll uh make sure that gets hit in the buzz straight away.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, you mean to go on?

SPEAKER_00

I could not think of a couple more greater men to have this conversation with. I know you both absolutely love a chat, so I don't think I need to do much talking in this podcast, to be honest. Without further ado, are you both ready to start the show? Yeah, I'm ready, mate. The first topic I want to start the pod with is a familiar one for your own pods, which I'm calling, no pun intended, the calling. You've both spoken about how you came to be in the fire service, your origin story. So I don't want to re-tread too much ground there, but I want to hone in on what it was specifically about firefighting that drew you both to the service. So, Dean, I want to start with you because I know Jace will go on for a little bit longer. Mine's quite short, actually.

SPEAKER_01

Good on. Yeah, mine's quite a really boring basic one. I think I'll cover this for all. And I talk to like a lot of recruits now on their first week, and it's a regular thing that comes up. You know, we talk about why they joined and as it's something they've always wanted to do. I'm quite unusual, I think, now, job. Most people I speak to come in contact with, and I think it's with most emergency services, armed forces, whatever it is, have always wanted to do that, maybe as a young kid growing up. It was never on my radar. The emergency services something I never thought about. But I've got a cousin a few years older than me that was in the service, and whenever I used to meet up with him, he'd always say, Oh, you should join the job. You'd love it, you'd love it. I never thought of it. Even when he said it, I thought, you know, not really something for me. And then I was working in an office after school, weren't really enjoying the work, wasn't really for me, you know, being on the computer, stuck in an office. And then I took a break, went travelling around Australia for a year, and the thought of coming back, going back to doing office work, I don't know what I want to do, I've got no direction, there's no real passion. And I always remember, oh, my cousin Paul has always said, What a great job the fire service is. So you know what? I'll give it a go and see what all that's about. And you have certain stages that you have to qualify, and you speak to a lot of people, and they might try three or four times before they actually get through all the processes. And I always said to my wife, if I found any state, I'd do something else, you know. But luckily, somehow, I don't know how I managed it, I managed to pass everything, which was quite a shock to me. And I always remember getting a letter and I was like, Oh no, I've actually been accepted. Like the fear hit me, the worry, you know. I thought, oh no. Now, 23 years later, honestly, it is the best decision I ever made. I couldn't think of a better job to do. Absolutely love it, and yeah, highly recommend it to everyone.

SPEAKER_02

Can I tell the truth? Um, right. Start as you mean to go on, mate. I will, okay, well, brace yourself. No, my background, like I was in the military, I worked on the rigs for a while, so I've always worked in those types of environments anyway. That allowed it to be relatively easy for me, to be honest. How the actual call-in happened was um one day a good mate of mine, Martin Hooper, who's in London now, just mentioned to me that Kent were recruiting. I hadn't even thought of it, but I grabbed hold of the application forms, they were sitting round my house in Maidstone. Me and Martin went out on the piss one night and we came home and filled them in, basically. And it went on from there. You got your name right, didn't you? I didn't write it. I didn't I got Martin to write it. It wasn't me. We only had one pack of crayons left. No, but seriously, it was never a massive ambition of mine, it kind of just fell in my lap. But it was an environment that I was also used to. I was used to working as part of the all the stuff back then that I used to look for, I think it's a slightly different criteria now. But back then, Dino said there was a lot of ex-military, tree surgeon, mechanic-y type people that work with their hands, worked in groups where you've got to work as a team and you've got to get along as a team as well. So once I got to training centre at Mason, because it was a residential course then, but you speak to different people, people that have come from different backgrounds. Some people really struggled with the recruit course. I've got to say I found it uh relatively easy, but having been used to that, fitness I mean, back then it was level 10 on the bleak test, which in my personal opinion, if you're going for an interview and you're told level 10 and you don't prep for level 10, you shouldn't get the job because you've been pre-warned about it. It's a bit like when you do an application form and it says fill it out in black ink. Well, if you fill it out in blue, you don't get a job, you just get chucked out because it's a simple instruction, and if you can't follow that simple instruction, what are you gonna do on the fire ground? But I do have a military background, so that's how my brain works. So yeah, that's that's how I got the job. It was a jolly night out in Maidstone, filled it out and sent it off. I mean, I was quite surprised I've got the uh call to go to the training centre though after that nine.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's quite mad as well, because back then you had to actually write the applications. So now it's all the nine, everyone gets it, and there was a phone number you had to ring, and it wasn't very well advertised because I think it was such in demand, like you might have one person for every six hundred literally, they'd open the phone line between eight and one on say a random Wednesday, and you just had to make sure you got on there, you left the voice message with your name and number, and most people never ever got anything through the post, so then you just got an application form literally sent through the post, and you had to physically write it out and then post it back.

SPEAKER_02

But that also ensured though, didn't it? They know that people really wanted the job, you know, all the basics that we've just said, you know, get your fitness up, get yourself up to a fire station, have a look around because you don't know what you're gonna be asked on an interview. We used to have it, we used to have people come up that are looking at joining so you can have a look around. Everybody was always happy to show someone around. Make sure you've got a little bit of knowledge about the kit that's kept on the fire engines, things like that, because back then you didn't know what you were gonna be asked. I mean, I believe now it's a bit more you have to have the right phrases about certain things, but back then you had to have shown that you've got off your ass and put a bit of time into looking at the job you're gonna go to.

SPEAKER_01

I mean in London it's quite good now. What we do is you have to go for almost like an trial day. People have to attend uh an open day to show interest, they then get invited to before they apply or anything, they go down to a certain fire station and they sort of put them through a few drills, they give them input on what the actual job entails, and it is quite a very open and honest conversation about what you're joining, what it is, and like I say, they get them like doing I think the rat run, going up ladders, rolling out hose and all that because what you find sometimes people used to go through the whole process, go to training school, and almost like, oh, this isn't what I thought it was. So I think actually, in the last couple of years, particularly in London, we're doing really well to give people that insight, and it's filtering a lot of people out of that stage before they waste any more of their time or the organisation's time. So, yeah, I think it went for a stage where it was like you say, when we applied, it was really quite strict, maybe it loosened off a bit. But I think we're going back now to that actually we'll get the right people, which is good to see.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's good. With you both, Jace, you've now retired. Dino, you're still in the service but in a different role. So you did firefighting for a number of years, frontline firefighting, you then moved into Walk and Talk 909, and now you're in this new role, which is a well-being role in the London Fire Brigade's well-being service since Christmas 2025. Obviously, a big change. How has the transition been for you, Dino? And then I'll ask you, Jace, about how the transition to retirement's been. Yeah, I really struggled at first.

SPEAKER_01

It's one of these things I always really enjoy being with a watch. If you're lucky enough, and I was lucky enough, they become your second family, a big support network. So I did that for well, it must be close to 20 years before I did the new role. But one thing I'd always, for 10 years or more, said we need to do more for mental health, we need more open, honest conversations, we need more signposting, we need to show it is okay not to be okay, not just a tagline, actually act on it, you know, not send emails out saying there's counselling available, actually get in front of people. So when I was asked to go off stations to do that, it was quite a hard position because it was one of them, it's needed, and I'm really passionate about it, but I don't want to really leave that environment that I love and I thrive on. So it is one of them, but I also thought I can't really have moaned about it for so long. And when I'm offered this great opportunity, turn around and go, Well, no, I don't want to do it. So I did it, and I've got to be honest, for the first six months, maybe more, maybe even a year, I really struggled not doing the shift because it had been my shift pattern for a long time, you know, the nights, the weekends. A lot of people say, Oh, you know, and we do, we miss family time, we miss you know, going out to events, you know, weddings, funerals, certain things. But I actually quite enjoyed the shift pattern, you know, give you that break. Going back to a nine till five, the worst thing, having to go shopping when everyone else is shopping. You know, I that was real culture shock. I was so used to like going a like a random Wednesday at midday, everyone's at work, everything's clear. Now I'm in the rat race with everyone. Public transport, travelling all around London on a daily basis. But what was coming with that, we get feedback everywhere we went just to check we were on the right path, you know, it's all anonymous, but just to check. And the feedback since day one was absolutely amazing. The amount of people that were contacting us afterwards saying that was the first time I spoke, I've never admitted that before. I've now gone on to get help and support. We even had some people approach me and say, You didn't know when you visited me last year, but I was in a bad place. After you came, I opened up to my watch, I turned up new walk, I've got the help and support, and I'm actually in a really good place now from opening up. So, seeing the benefits and the positivity and the change in people's lives, it was happening. I'm really proud that I took that leap, I did it, and hopefully we can carry on that momentum because it seems to be making a massive change. But it's a question I'm always asked: you know, do you miss station life? 100%. The thought of never going back on a fire engine again, never going out of shouts, and never being in that team environment scares me because I do love it. Yes, it's a hard one, but it's something that's really needed, and also in a weird way, I'm promoting support networks, you know, looking after yourself by taking that leap. I sort of threw my biggest support network away, and I struggle with that sometimes.

SPEAKER_02

Also, though, Dino, you've started like a little bit of a revolution, if you like, haven't you, in that mental health journey? Because, in my opinion, a lot of the brigades they just tick a box for mental health, I'm afraid. A lot of officers or whatever that right up the top of the ranks won't like what I'm about to say, but they do, and they think sitting in a classroom, and I think I mentioned it last time we spoke, Freddie, they think it's okay to get 20 or 30 blokes sitting in a classroom and be lectured to about suicide and and all these other mental health problems. Whereas most guys and girls at a grassroots level they need to be with similar types of people to be able to chat freely, but also away from the environment of a white classroom, you know, with an overhead projector or whatever it is, they got their whiteboards or whatever it is, having facts and figures thrown at them. I believe it doesn't work for the majority. Whether it's in a coffee shop, what we do round a fire, what you do walking and talking, has so much more success in allowing people to talk, and you've started that revolution within London and then spread it out, sort of thing. And what I think is good from London's point of view is they've actually recognised that and they've allowed you to do that job.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and also we've proven it in the fact that one thing that always bugged me, just in life in general, one size don't fit all. And for many years we would just promote, we got counselling, and my point was that's great, but what are we doing for everyone that doesn't want counselling? What are we doing for one size fits one, mate? Yeah, that's it, and what are we doing for everyone that counselling doesn't work for? But how are we even getting people to use that counselling early enough without having these conversations to point people? And I think we've proven it, and it gives me a chance now to basically to break some of the stigmas around counselling and different forms of therapy, you know, CBT and all the other stuff that's out there that people don't know about, but also it gives me a great opportunity to explain the vast array of external non-clinical support, whether it's swimming with dogs, whether it's surfing, fishing, you know, all these wonderful organisations that are out there, and a lot of them arrange purely at the emergency services, but no one knows about them. So, like yours, Jay. I was lucky enough to you know go and experience it firsthand. And for me, I went there just to you know meet Jay, meet Martin, Charlie. I knew it was a good idea, but I left there so much lighter. I was really shocked at how much I actually got out of it. And since we go around, it's obviously worked because there's a few people that since I've gone round that I've spoken to have turned up, and it's been life-changing from turning up to meeting Jay. So proof in the pudding, isn't it? It's it's working, people are reaching out, are turning up. Whereas them people, what were they doing for? Because they didn't know so about Jay. Now they've been to it, they've experienced it, and some of them become regular members.

SPEAKER_00

Dino, you also spoke recently at the London Assembly about walk and talk. How proud a moment was that for you? As much as it was probably nerve-wracking, too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's um a bit of a surreal moment. Yeah, I always get nervous. People always think, oh, you know, he's done loads of this, he's really confident, all that. I always say I suffer massive with anxiety. Don't matter how many talks I do. I've spoken to maybe 300 watches at fire stations over the last three years. I still now, when I get invited and I turn up, that first 10-15 minutes, I am literally a bag of nerves. I'm worried. Once I get into it, once I sort of feel the people engaging out, I settle down, then I'm okay. I sort of get my flow. But yeah, because of that, a very different arena, very professional. I'm aware of also you worry, like it's your job, innit? If I say the wrong thing, this is like in a massive arena on telly, I'm with senior officers, so I was very aware of that as well. I knew I was nervous, but I wasn't aware how nervous. But they give you like a bottle of water and uh glass to put it in. So I've got my water and I thought, I'll have a drink because my mouth's gone really dry because I can feel because what they said as well. You'll talk about the walls, but we might go down asking questions, and I'm very much I'll sit there think about what I gotta say. But luckily they told me that, so I was very much listening to the questions because otherwise they would have got to me and said, Dean, what do you think? I'll be like, I don't know what you've asked. So I was panicking and I could see him, I could see him gradually going down the line. I was like, Oh no, they're still going down the line, they're gonna ask me. So I thought I'll have a drink of water as I picked it up, my hands like I couldn't even drink it because I thought I'm gonna smash myself in the face with it because my hand was shaking so much. Yeah, it's to see the journey, like I know, where we started with we just thought one walk, if we can help one person, we're doing our bit to see now, you know, this many years later, sit in an arena like that. Whatever people's political views are, I'm always of the opinion if one person sees something we say or we do and benefits, it's worth it. We're not worried about you know taking over the world. Um, the fact that we've got too many walks is fantastic. I'd still be happy just one walk if we're just helping one person, you know. I'm still happy with that. So the fact that this journey has led to not only sitting there but realising it was actually organic the way they found the walks as well. I assumed it was our brigade had gone to them and said, Look, we've got this good luck story, look good, you know, we'll will you out and you can put everyone in a good light. When I spoke to the people that were there at the London Assembly, they said, Oh no, we were looking for what's available in the services, and we come across your walks, we check your website out, you know, and it's really amazing what you're doing. We wanted you just to come down so we could find out more about it. So for me, that sort of added to the shine of it. Oh, actually, it was all organic, they actually did really like it and engage with it. Yeah, and it gave me a great place to talk, and also I think when you do things like that, people take it more seriously as well, rather than oh, it's just a wall. They look oh blind. If you're invited to something like that, there must be something in this, you know. So I think it helps it helps people then maybe to go, oh maybe I might try it, or maybe maybe we need this in our service. If the London Assembly are taking note of it, have a look into it. Maybe we should have a look into this. And I've had from that, I've had a few calls and good conversations with people that saw that and now want to talk to me. Like Samaritans, for example, reached out after that and said, We saw you in London Assembly, could we have a meeting? Could we have a chat? That was really good.

SPEAKER_00

For you, Jay, you're obviously no longer a serving firefighter, you retired now. How did you find that transition? Obviously, you've got Embers now, which is your new purpose. How have you found that transition?

SPEAKER_02

I've been really lucky because my situation was a bit different when I left. I mean, a lot of guys do all their time on a station or whatever, and then suddenly it's their last shift and and they go. And I and I think some guys struggle with that. A bit like some of the stuff Dean talked about, you know. I mean, our watch system is different now, they've changed it. But when we used to do the day, day, night, night system that you might have been in for 30 odd years, uh back in the day, a lot of guys used to struggle, I believe. But for me personally, I had a year off sick because of stuff that was going on with me. Before that, I opted to go down the channel tunnel where life's a lot slower down there. Obviously, you don't get the same amount of shouts down the channel tunnel. I think like about three the time I was there for a year, which was like okay. And a lot of the guys down there have all done 25 years plus, so you don't have the same bullshit, basically. Everybody knows how to do their job and you can get on with it. And then, like I say, and I had a year off sick, I couldn't drive, they took my licence off me because I've now found out I'm epileptic, not as in the usual way people think about it, but I just get a weird feeling in my arm and my leg, which is now sorted with drugs. I've got my licence back now, but that year that I was at home, I couldn't drive anywhere, and I was out in the sticks, and my bigger struggle wasn't with leaving the fire brigade, it was almost being isolated, if you like. If I wanted to get my hair cut, it was a morning's job because I had to get on my bike and cycle to the village that was, I don't know, ten, twelve miles up the road just to get haircut, which wasn't a problem, you know, physically it wasn't a problem, and even mentally it wasn't a problem really, but it's the fact that I had to organise this stuff to do the simple things. You know, I stepped up at home by every week I was doing the shopping online and stuff like that. Even going to the woods. Most of the time I used to just when I started it off, you know, fill a bergen up with all my bits and bobbles I was going to need and just walk to the woods. One time, because I hadn't shaved for a while, I had a big beard and everything. I had a Bergen for a kit and I was doing some chainsawing, so I had a chainsaw strapped to the top and everything else, and I just cycled to the woods to do some work. So the actual transition of leaving the fire brigade to me personally was quite easy. I mean we've even had people come to us, they've been in 30, 35 years, it's been their life, and their massive worry to them has been leaving the job and going out into Civvy Street, if you like. When we're in the woods, one of our guys who does a lot of check-ins for us, Chirpy, he his little phrase is it's not the mental health Olympics. So what is a massive problem to someone might not be to somebody else, but to some of these people, it's a huge thing. You know, you're going from an organised lifestyle, you might have a bit of rank, you're used to people within reason doing what they're told, and all of a sudden you're just a bod, you know, in the nicest of ways, you're a nobody, if you like, if that's the right sort of phrase, you're in in the rap race with everybody else. My answer's a bit shorter than Dino's because I've done it and I and I found it relatively easy because of the way I did it. It wasn't instant, it was a slow transition for me over time.

SPEAKER_00

And then as we reflect on this topic, then I spoke earlier about purpose. How have each of your relationships with purpose changed as you've gone through the fire service? And obviously, in your case, Jace, transitioned out of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think obviously when you're running on your job, your purpose is there, you know you're turning up, and each call, you're going to go to someone's worst day. And my purpose is always if I can make it a little bit less impactful for them. Whether that's sitting and comforting them, whether it's once we put the fire out, spending a little bit of time clearing up rather than just going off and leaving them with a mess. That was always my purpose. I knew we were there to you know serve the public. Now I feel got to a stage as well, I think, in my career, where I don't know if Jay it was the same, where you get not stagnant, but it's similar. You still love the job turning up, but it's the very same. And I think that's why a lot of people end up going up the ranks, a new challenge. Um, for me, it came at a good time, it put a bit of fire back into me. Excuse the pun. But when that's being the knowledge, how things are working, I suddenly thought, actually, I feel like I'm making a massive difference again. I'm making a massive change, and that's carried on. Hopefully, it continues to carry on. And with everything I get invited to or to speak at, it fires it up again to say, Oh, look, someone wants to talk to me in a magazine or doing this with yourself, you know. Oh, Freddie wants to have a chat on the podcast, so we're obviously doing well. We must be doing all right because people want to engage us and talk to us. Like I say, in London Assembly, I had the honour of going to again, politics isn't my thing, but being able to go to night number 10 and things that you go, oh, people must be listening, it must be making a difference. And yeah, and the amount of people we get turning up, seeing on the walks when I see the photos coming and go, look, I feel like we've created that. With obviously wonderful walk leaders that give up their time. So I'm under no illusion this wouldn't be where it was without these other wonderful people. I'd still be one walk in one park. I say quite regularly to everyone that turns up, I'm under no illusion if any of you didn't turn up here, it'd be me and my own. So although I started it, it only works because other people are backing it, supporting it, utilising it. So yeah, so my purpose now is helping people trying to make someone's life a little less impactful in a negative way. And the big thing for me is championing everyone else like Jason. Great if you turn up my wall, but as long as that person gets support, whatever that support looks like, if I can be part of that journey and help them to realise there's other stuff out there, give them the confidence to do it, whether that's me sharing my journey, admitting vulnerability, or just signposting, letting them know it's even an option. That to me is my purpose is getting all the stuff that's available out there to the masses. Because I always thought with me when I went through my depression that I didn't want counselling, so I'm on my own, because that's all I thought was available. Had I known about all this other stuff, I would have gone, I'm not on my own, I'm not alone. There are other options. So that for me is the big thing I try and do now is promote all the other stuff, not just our walks.

SPEAKER_02

For me, the ultimate goal is still exactly the same, but it's achieved in a different way. So within the fire brigade, fire service as it's now called, I was a fireman, I didn't have rank or anything. I'd like to think I was alright at my job. So you turn up to a car crash, a house fire, or whatever, your ultimate goal is to get that person out of the car potentially as quick as possible. If you're the first on the scene and the ambulance isn't there, which was always a little bit of a dread for everyone. I don't know how many ambulances you have floating around London, Dino, but I know in Kent they're not very common sort of thing. You've probably got to put your first aid stuff to work and everything else, and you are doing 110% to make things as good for those people in the car as possible. Same as house fires. Luckily, I suppose, or gratefully, the majority of house fires, most people are out, but that is still their house, you know, that is still their life. They've got photographs in there, they've got documents in there, they've got, I don't know, a bit of furniture that might be close to them. You're trying to get in there as quick as possible to sort that out. Obviously, if there's a casualty that takes priority, they're straight out, and then the boys outside, or the boys and girls that are outside helping you from the outside, they will take over the first aid, you're back in to try and put the fire out. So ultimately, that goal is to help people, and then starting up embers and stuff, and what we do, it's the same goal, it's to help people, and whereas in the fire brigade, I used to you get an adrenaline rush, you know, everybody says, Oh, you're so brave, you're not thinking about that, because it's an adrenaline rush, you know, you've been training for it, and it's just doing that sort of stuff was a brilliant job. Not very nice for the people whose house it was, or someone stuck in a car, but that's what you train to do, so that's where you used to get your rush. For me, where we sit, where our campfire is and the canopy and stuff, you have to come up a little path, up a little hill to get to us. We fully appreciate how hard it is for people that come to us to even pick up the phone. I like to speak to everybody that comes to us, just a quick chat. But it is a little bit of a filter system because we want to make sure that the people that come to us, it doesn't matter how big or small their problem is, but what we don't want is someone that just is 100% okay and thinks I'm just gonna have a jolly in the woods. We're there to help people. And it could be something really simple that's bothering, it doesn't matter, but as long as they need the help, but we appreciate that to even to just to pick up the phone for some of these people is a massive, massive thing. So therefore, walking up that path, most of the time they've come on their own, and sometimes if they're the third or the fourth person to arrive, maybe there's already a couple of people round the fire, you know, having a brew, chatting. Most people don't like even walk into a room of people they don't know when they think they're alright. So we appreciate the mountain they're climbing really to come up. But then for me, the job satisfaction or whatever like I used to get within the fire brigade is when they go on on the Sunday morning sort of thing, is first of all, we've noticed that they've possibly hung around for a bit. We feed them in the morning anyway, but they've had a brew and everyone is still chatting. And sometimes we've almost got to chuck them out almost, you know, we've got to start tidying up because they're there. That isn't a problem, because we're there all day anyway, and by that time they've kind of made themselves at home, which is brilliant because that's what we want. But then when we see them walking back down a path, you can almost physically see their their shoulders have dropped almost, they're not sort of tight and everything else. To me, that's where I get my adrenaline buzz, you know, thinking we don't profess to sort everybody's problems out. We're not therapists, that is not what we're doing. We're making them a little bit lighter to be able to face whatever their problems are, say tomorrow, next week, next month, whatever it is, we're trying to I think I used the same analogy last time. We're trying to drop that level in their cup a little bit. If I can drop that level by a centimetre, you know, if their cups fall to the top, surface tension and everything else, if I can drop it by a centimetre, you know, we've cracked it. Or even if their cup's slowly filling up, if we can just bring it back down a little bit, it gives them that time to regroup a little bit in their heads and then deal with like I mean, you said you're sort of snowed under with work at the moment, Freddie. It's that little bites at a time, isn't it? And it gives them the chance to be able to have little bites at whatever's going on for them. So that's my satisfaction definitely is achieving that goal.

SPEAKER_00

The next topic I want to talk about, lads, is the bravery. Now we've spoken about it a little bit already. I spoke with Dino on his part one and a little bit on his part two about this lionization of firefighters and how in making firefighters superheroes in the eyes of the public, although it's well meaning, it can A create stigma in male firefighters specifically, in admitting when they're struggling, getting support, and B, it inversely dehumanizes them as well. So many people can't get their head around how firefighters, men and women, can see a burning building, rush into danger instead of away. And you've talked about that adrenaline rush a little bit, Jace, about how you kind of deal with that and do that. So my next question is Was there something innate in you which made you brave? Did you learn it on the job? And how do you kind of conceptualise your own relationship with the concept? Dina, I'll go with you first.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's quite a weird one because I don't think I'm a necessarily brave person. I don't like confrontation, I'm a people pleaser, I let a lot of people walk over me when I should stand up for myself. So I don't see myself as being a brave person. But there has been certain times in my life where I've done stuff that's just naturally and then afterwards, like maybe had a little bit of a wobble. I remember years ago I worked for Halford's, and I was probably 16, I saw someone broken into one of my colleagues' cars. Next thing I'm shouting at him, chasing this guy down the road, rugby tackled him and dragged him back. And that isn't me. Once the adrenaline dropped out, I was like, What did I do? Sort of thing. There was another time when I was a kid, someone stole mine and my brother's bike. I chased the lads down the road, got the bikes back, you know. So there's certain times in my career I've done stuff where I look back and think, blind me, a bit silly, but it's obviously a bit of confidence which I didn't realise I had. So when I look back, I think actually I probably wasn't as nervous and worried, maybe as I feel I am in them sort of situations. Yeah, when I joined the job, it's always a worry, would I have what it takes, would I be able to do it? But I think you sort of go through so much training and you feel comfortable in the kit, what you're doing, so you trust this stuff. Like I always say, I will go up a ladder from the service, no problem. Three, four floors, climb out, climb back on, come down, I'm fine. I go down to the in-laws, he gets his rusty old ladder out, puts it out, and said, Oh, can you go up to the first floor window and give it a clean? I'm holding on for dear life, you know. So I think it's a lot of reliance on the equipment, you trust it, you do your drill, so it's like second nature. I think a lot of it you get task focused, so I'm just focused on what my task is, you know, go in there, put the fire out, so I'm doing it. There's been a few times in the career afterwards when I've thought about what we've just done, and it's like give me a little bit of a wobble. Like, I remember many years ago we went out to a fire, we went up, and there was a slight delay in us being able to go in to get a ladder to get internally because there was you know you couldn't use the stairs for some reason. But while I was waiting there, the floor caved in. So I thought, blind me, if I hadn't had that delay, that would have caved in, and there the times I think it's after the job. I don't know if Jason feels the same, sometimes afterwards when you think what you've just done, how it could have gone wrong, what you've just exposed to. You know, I've been in a job where it has flashed over just before we've gone in, and you sort of think, Well, two seconds before I'd have been all right in the middle, so afterwards the nerves kick in. But yeah, I just think it's not maybe not necessarily bravery. I think more we're well trained.

SPEAKER_02

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01

I think you just task focus, you're trained, it's what we do, you sort of do it because you're so well trained for it.

SPEAKER_02

I think bravery's the wrong I don't know what the right word would be, but bravery is the wrong word for it because bravery to me says something that you're almost conscious of. I agree with everything Dino said, and also I think you throw in there a bit of teamwork, especially when we were working the watch system in Kent, the same as London do now. So when I was at Maystone in Kent and we were on watches, I think we were on watches for about 20 odd years while I was there, and you know everybody on your watch. Obviously, you used to get a few new people coming in and they come under your wings and then you learn about them. But most of the guys that I work with, their children are born, you know, as they grow up, you know, you meet the kids, you meet the families. We used to have social dos on station, Christmas kids, Christmas parties, we used to have Halloween du's, everything else, and you're it is corny, but you are actually all part of a big family, and it's but you're part of a team, you know. So you're with your mucker, we talk about house fires, you're both BA. Again, it it's a bit uh, but it is just it's your job, mate, you know, that's what you're there to do. Like Dean said, you do training. I don't know how much training they do now because they're being tasked to do lots of other things now, but back when I kind of first joined, definitely, we were training quite a lot. So it's repetitive stuff, the advancement in the kit now, you know, it even just your tunic and trousers and stuff, you don't feel the heat. When I when I first joined, sorry, before I joined, they didn't even used to wear these, they were called flash hoods, which is like a balaclava, which protects your whole back of your neck from the heat. So now they've got all these fancy flash hoods, they've got all the helmets that protect you, the gloves, but also I believe the knowledge in the way fires work, as that's what we're talking about. You know, other countries I think Sweden is quite leading in that sort of area. They learn all this stuff, it gets slowly cascaded down. So the training as well. Um I think Kent have built a new firehouse where they're gonna be putting different types of fire in so people can learn about it. So, yeah, training kit and teamwork, you know, with the guys that you've known for a long time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I was gonna say, I think also comes into the fact that naturally think people that join our NC, not all, but the majority of us, we got empathy, we got that need and that want to help people. So when you turn up, you know that is if someone's in there, particularly, your thought is it's like I need to get that person out of there as quickly as they can to save them. If it's say a car accident, sorry, RTC, they're called road traffic collisions now, if someone's in that, we want to get them out as safely as possible so they can get the treatment they need. So I think it's the person at the end of whatever call we've gone to is always particularly on our minds in the fact that that person is their worst day, whether it's saving their lives or whether they're outside and watching their house on fire, we want to get that out because it's devastating for them. You know, you turn up and it might be pipes leaking through the house, same thing, that's devastating for them. I think a lot of it is that call of when I turn up, I need to get whatever done as quickly and as professionally as possible because that person that is standing there or involved in it, I want them to be in a better place as quickly as possible. For me, a lot of it is for the person that we're turning up to help. You don't even think about your danger, it's like I need that person to be okay.

SPEAKER_02

That starts as well from so on a fire station, when the bells go down, you get a thing called a turnout slip, and it comes out on a little printer and you you get to have a little reading up. You've got a screen now as well, like a computer screen where you can read it. And if it's like Dino said, if it's what's called persons reported, so best example if it's a house fire with someone in it, or if it's an RTA or an RTC with uh someone trapped, it'll tell you it's persons reported. So that empathy or that concern or whatever you want to call it starts with the driver because the driver will take the turnout slip. And I think most of us are done driving, and you drive differently to a shout if it's persons reported than you do if it's a fire alarm or someone locked out. Everything changes in your head, you can feel the atmosphere changing on the fire engine because as information's coming through, they'll potentially start talking about it. You know, someone might be signed to be the first aider, you'll be talking about getting a covering jet out, all the basics that you know it's all in your head and it's all going through. And the driver's thinking about I mean, because the driver, I think, is the busiest person at the beginning of a house fire because he's got so much to do. Once he's got you there, and his adrenaline's high anyway, so once he's got you there, he's got to get the hose reels off, he's got to look at the first aid kit, he's got to be looking at where his water's coming from, he's got to think of the position of the fire engine, all this stuff. The BA crew's got a big job, the breathing apparatus crew, but basically they jump off, start the BA sets up, they grab the hose reel, they kick the door in, and they're going in to do the job. So it's a different mindset when it's a person's reported, so it's still that empathetic thing, but it properly chops into professionalism, you fall back on your training, you know, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice all the time, and then it's just put into action with that little bit more of an immediate sort of feeling about it, you know, because potentially this is someone's life, or it's someone's wife, husband, child, whatever it is. And half the time as well, the driver's dealing with sometimes it's the family outside the front of the house. Sometimes they're kind of on your side, other times they're in your face. I fully understand it. I've got two daughters, I'd be in someone's face if I didn't think they were working quick enough, but you're doing your best and you're trying to juggle 20 balls, and then you've got someone in your face saying, Come on, what are you doing? and you're thinking, I can't do anymore.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I'm trying to do all this, and you've got to deal with all of that. But also, you know, you're we're always aware it's us or no one. Like when you're a member of the public, you know, help is on its way, that help arrives, they are gonna sort it. I remember very early days realising that's us, that is us, you know. If I if we don't go in and deal with that, that's gonna be a bad result because there's no backup. We're the fires, we're there to put that fire out. If we can't, then there's not a second option. It is us. I always remember early days going out, we go out to people stuck in lifts, a lot more in the past, and now it's like sort of a bit different, and the mechanics around it, you had to manually wind it. I remember turning up, like fresh in the job, and there's so many people in this lift, that's why it you wouldn't open or come down, it had broken, and you had to manually wind it to get it down, and it's hard at the best of times because there's so many people, it's almost impossible. And it was late on a Friday, probably two in the morning, like Friday night, and I remember saying radio, my governor going, Yeah, this ain't happening, and his reply, and it's always stuck with me. What I'm saying now is Dean, it's us or no one. If we don't get them out, they are here till Monday morning, they are here for three days, and it's like, Oh, okay, well, it's us. So I think you're aware that when you turn up, someone's in there, the empathy kicks in. I need to get in there as quickly as possible because they need to get out as quickly as possible, if it's someone that's stuck in the house or something, because it's me or no one. If I delay, if I don't get there quick, so yeah, bravery is brave, but like Jay says, I don't think necessarily it's a conscious thing, it's just like that's my job, they're coming out. Let's just get in there, and afterwards, the nerves are kicking, I think.

SPEAKER_00

It almost feels then like it's turbocharged or adrenaline-fuelled empathy rather than turbocharged bravery. Would that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, oh definitely.

SPEAKER_02

And the funny thing is as well, sometimes you said about the dangerous stuff, you know, and you really don't think about it at the time, you just crack on and do it. And what I've found personally, and it's afterwards, like you said, you know, then you might realise it, and then it's just funny because you've got away with it. So you'll possibly have that adrenaline dump because you'll laugh about it and you'll be like, fuck sakes, that was brilliant, but we got away with it. Do you know what I mean? And and you'll have a laugh, and then you go down the roads, you official roads. If you have a debrief, you know, what could you have done better? What did you do wrong? What did you do right? And that's again, that makes you a better person than in theory, the next time you go, because you might have done something a bit silly or whatever, and it's do you know what I mean? You learn from your mistakes, but yeah, there's that adrenaline dump afterwards, which also can carry on to some of the mental health stuff, because quite often you get back to the fire station and the kettle's put on the mess table in a fire station, is such an important place, and you can sit around a mess table and you can have a like a fireman's debrief. So if someone's done something silly, you can take the piss out of them, or if there was something dangerous again, you can chat about it. That's where it all happens at a fireman's level. Really, you're sitting around a mess table after a job. Same in London, I see you in Dino, same sort of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, we do it. We actually now do part of this new role. I've been given another new role where we're doing peer-to-peer support. So after certain instances or certain notes, we reach out to the crews, the firefighters, have a more mate-to-mate chat, talk about the vast support that's available, which yours is included in, to try and have more open honest conversations. So, yeah, like Jay says, after an incident, we go back, cup of tea, sit around and mess, the governor will facilitate it, like just uh just a check-in with everyone, you know, how you're doing, you know, are you all right? But also remember, like in general, Freddie, in life in general, you have things happen day to day, you'll come back, and we we all overthink things, don't we? Oh, I should have done that. If I had taken that turn, if I'd done that, it would have been differently. Why did I say that? Why did I do that? You know, and nothing can change, but it's it's human nature to replay events and incidents or stuff you experience. Imagine what it's like in the emergency services where that's someone's life involved. We do that time and time again. You know, we can't change it, but you come back going, Oh, maybe I should have gone through that door, maybe I should have turned left instead of right, then it we could have done this better, or maybe definitely when it's not the result you know we hoped for at the end. You know, you imagine how much people beat themselves up, and a lot of times there's nothing we could have done different. We did above and beyond, we did as much as we can. The result was always sadly going to be the result, but it will play on your mind for a long time afterwards, going, but had I got the water on quicker, had I yeah, I got in that door, you know. So that to do with mental health as well really plays a big impact with us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and also just if I don't mind me making a quick point on that one as well. I think this is more possibly a personal side, and I think quite a lot of firemen will probably agree with it, firefighters will agree with it. You do those jobs, the sad jobs, you know, where it's all going to be pear-shaped and stuff, and you do your quick bit of diffusing or whatever you want to call it at the end, and then quite often it's it's put to bed, you have to put it out of your head. So I did 30 years in the fire service, and you come out and you think, I've not got anything mad in my head, you know, I'm alright, sort of thing. But actually, I think, especially with what I've been doing with them was you know, in the last sort of couple of years, and we've met a lot of veterans and stuff. Obviously, a lot of them have done Afghan and places like that, and they talk about these uh harsh incidents that they've been involved in where something's happened to a friend of theirs instantly and things like that. I think with the fire brigade, it's slightly different on the mental health, or I've found it different, and it tends to be layers. So you'll go to a snotty RTA or RTC, you'll sort that out, you get back, you have a cup of tea, you kind of deal with it, but you don't realise that's made a layer, and then you'll go to another job and they've made another layer, and you get the layers come on top. So sometimes the snotty incidents don't sort of hit you in the face like maybe they possibly do for a lot of the military guys, and it can creep up on you if you're not careful. Your cup's getting full in a different way, it's getting full in layers of incidents. I think a lot of a lot of the guys and girls in the fire brigade don't necessarily realise that, especially when they're younger. And I don't know, Dino, if you find it the youngsters don't find it as easy to talk because they're not realising sometimes that it might be affecting them. It's not until people get further down the line, and then they think about but I can drive around Maystone and on most corners I can think, yeah, I've had a dead one there, I've had a dead one there, I've had a dead one there, I've had a dead one in that house, or a snotty one, and then you think, shit, I've been to all these incidents, and you don't realise it.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's to say, a friend of mine said many years ago, and it's always stuck to me, and it's true, it says, firefighters leave incidents, incidents don't leave firefighters. Yes, you know, and you'll recall them, I see it sometimes, and you suddenly you'll get a face or a feeling of you know, it's the people. I always say it's like you say with the new um co-alts coming through. For two years now, I speak to all the new co-alts for their first week of training school before they do any drills or anything. We have a raw open conversation about mental health, exactly that, humanising it, making them realise this can happen, this can be effective. They could call it like a death by a thousand paper cuts, don't they? But talking to them and making them understand it's not always the traumatic stuff you're dealing with, so it's not like the horrific scene always that bothers you. Most of my sleepless nights and things that affected me over my career, I would say, is looking at that husband, wife, you know, kids, the upset on their faces at the side of the road. That's actually what sort of stays with me more a lot of the times. Actually, the hands-on stuff I've been okay with. It's the personal side of it that I found has affected me a little bit more incidents sometimes, and people don't give themselves a break, they sort of think, well, how can I say I'm alright with that, but I'm not okay with seeing the upset on person that wasn't involved in it. No, that's okay. That's that's human, that's empathy. It's fine to admit that. So we have these conversations now to say just think about how that can affect you as well. It doesn't always have to be the you know horrific scene you've gone to.

SPEAKER_02

I think on the same thing as well, you you're talking about the empathy, and and I think a lot of people that are drawn to the fire service must have obviously have got that because they want to help people ultimately. That that's your goal. You hit the nail on the head. There is where you see the family or the friends that are upset, you don't feel like you've failed, but there is a a little sense of that, because it's like Dino said, you are the last protocol, so no one else is gonna get that person out of that car because they're so smashed up in a car, you haven't got the tools apart from the knowledge, and you're doing your best to get that person out, for example, and then they die as you're getting them out of the car, and the wife is sitting right next to you in the car as well, because they're just a bit bashed up and nowhere near as trapped. This particular incident you've got this poor bloke who's died, and you're trying to get him out of the car. Failure isn't the right word, I can't find the right word for it, but you're doing your best and it doesn't work, you know. You do carry a lot of that over your career. I don't think you realise, I think that's the thing about it, you don't realise, and that's really can creep up on you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and and also it's the sometimes it's the lack of closure. In our job, we pretty much never know the outcome. People go to hospital, that's the last we see, we never find out. So it's sometimes can be quite quite often. I think about incidents of people think, I wonder whether they're still walking around, wonder whether they made it, and that can be quite emotional as well, you know, because of GDPR and everything. We we're not allowed to find out or look into it. Some people don't want to, because some people it won't help, but I think that can play its toll as well. They think over a 30-year career in emergency services, you're exposed to anything between 300 and 600 traumatic incidents. That's a lot when we think we can't talk about it, it's the job I do, it's what I signed up for, I've got to be alright, I'm never gonna moan about it. How can we not talk about it? How can we not have an outlet?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, something that people don't realise as well, and it's not I don't want anyone to say thank you to me for anything I've done. I'm not interested in the nicest of ways. I don't need them to say thank you, because that's your job, like Dino just said. But I can count on one hand, definitely one hand, the amount of times people have come back to station and said thank you. Don't want to thank you, I just want to know they're alright. You know, brilliant. We got you out of the car, we got you out the house, we got you out of that bit of machinery, whatever it is, and now you're walking around. Brilliant. You know, we've achieved that goal. And I don't think it's anything nasty about these people that have been in these incidents. I genuinely just think they don't think about it. I don't think they've been horrible to us. They think you know, the doctors at the hospital that have put them back together or whatever, obviously, and they do an amazing job. But they just don't think about the people that have got them out of the car or the house or whatever for whatever reason, I don't know. But nothing horrible, they just don't.

SPEAKER_01

No, but with all that as well, it's still the best job in the world, and I wouldn't change it for anything, you know. Because when we talk when I talk to recruits, I always say that, because they have talked some counts and everything. I always say, don't feel like you're joining a job where you're going to be traumatised and your life's up ruined and all that. We just need to help you on that journey at certain points where it gets a little bit too much to get that help, to process, to get through it. And I don't think we had that enough, certainly when me and Jay joined. Now I think it's available, but it's important to let people know that. But yeah, there's a reason people do 30-year career in this, you know, not many jobs people do their whole career, 30 years, you know, it is still an absolute amazing job.

SPEAKER_00

I think this is gonna be you guys' favourite topic, which is the watch. For new listeners, a watch is a firefighters fire station they're based at. It's the group of men and women they work with every day. Like you said, Dino and Jace, it's your second family, or it becomes your second family, I should say. So is this the best part of the job for you? Easy question first.

SPEAKER_02

I've got something to say on that, actually. Yes, when it was watches, brilliant, and I wish Kent still had watches. So I'll say why it's good. It's good because you become part of a family, and that's really like I say a bit cheesy to say that, but you do you socialise together. I mean at Mayston again we used to have big social dos, any money made was put back into the social club. In our social club, so we had I can't remember four or five bays, you know, like spaces for fire engines in at Mayston. We used to clear everything out, we bought a load of parachute silks to put up, so we used to hang them up so it didn't look like a fire station. We had a beach party one year, we shipped in 20 tons of sand, we built a beach bar, it was fantastic, and anything from that again went back into the station. We bought gym equipment and it was brilliant, and it used to bring everyone together to set it up. You'd meet people's families. Christmas time we used to have Christmas do's, I think they still do at Maeston, where the kids of the guys and girls would come in, and we had people join the fire brigade as all sort of leaving that they were the kids that used to come to the do's sort of thing and everything else, which is brilliant. Another thing the watch is does, which I think or did in Kent, still does in London, which I think is really important, is when you get a new person, they kind of get taken under the wing of the watch. So when you're in training centre, it's a bit like when you learn to drive a car, you know, like with 10 to 2 with your hands and stuff. You get on station and you learn how to put all that stuff into action properly. They're looked after, and that's when they really start learning. And another thing a watch does, like so if me and Dino had worked together for years and if he was having a shit day, I might pick up on it. We'll deal with it, I'll either take the piss out of him or I'll grab him when he's on his own or whatever and say, Everything alright, mate, that sort of stuff used to go on in the watches as well. Sadly for Kent, they went a few years ago to self-rostering, and I can say what I like now because I'm retired, but a lot of firemen started calling selfish rostering. So my second job, most firemen have, but I was a plasterer. So basically, we used to do, I can't remember now, I think it was four or five twenty-fours and a day or a night, and you'd all populate a big board of squares, and the junior officers would make it work with skill sets and stuff like that. But I used to be able to arrange it so I could have four or five days spare, and I could go and do plastering or whatever else I needed to do, spend time with my family, etc. But what that meant was we'd lost the watches, so a lot of stuff I've just talked about has been lost in Kent, and things like say Dino was a new bloke, I could meet him today, we could go through cutting a car up and stuff like that. I might not see him for another five or six days, someone else has got him tomorrow, or the next day they might do something slightly different. It would take me a long time to get to know Dino. So those signs that we said, if someone's a bit, you know, not having a good day, I might miss out on. So for me, personally, watches are such a concrete footing of everything that the Fire Brigade does or can do as a team that works on the ground and looks after itself and everything else. I know you've still got the watches, Dino, haven't you? And I'm sure you'll agree, all those plus points are just fantastic for a watch. Yeah. Over to you, mate. That's my little cheers.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, spot on, mate. It's exactly like Jay says. If you're lucky enough, which I was, it does become like your second family. It's a strange job, but a great job. You're living with people. Like with them two days and two nights, you're literally living with people. So we do drills, we do that, but you get a lot of time when you're actually, you know, with each other. You know, you're eating together, you're growing together, you're learning together. So spot on what Jay says, you learn each other's habits, traits, so you can see if someone's personalities, habits, traits changing, gives you that opportunity to approach them, checking they're right. If something's going on in your life, quite often your watch would be the first people you'd probably call to help you, to look after you. You know, you'd have, like you say, externally, we were having barbecues, Christmas do's, you know, with families and stuff, various outdoor activities, doing lots of stuff outside work, you know, tough mudders and all that bonding, nights out drinking, or you know, whatever it is. So not just at work, it was a real community. But the big thing I think for the job as well, it allows you to learn each other's like strengths. So, you know, we can't all be good at everything. So if we go out to an incident, there might be one of the crew that's better at doing knots and lines. So if we need to tie something and get it up, we go like such and such, jump on that because that's their strength. If someone's uh a little bit smaller and slimmer, you've got to get in a window, right? That's their strength. So you could utilise what you've got as a team, whatever you go to, each person will have their role depending on their strengths. So you learn that. Sitting around a mess, you learn that trust and you build that trust. So you get that confidence to be able to open up, talk, share, get that help and support if you need it because you know these people, they are part of your family. So yeah, there's a lot of positive and stress. Obviously, like I say, sometimes it's dysfunctional because you are in that enclosed environment. Sometimes people don't get on, it's only natural. But if you've got a decent watch, a decent governor, that would get addressed. You know, get in an office, talk it through, sort it out. If it's not going to get sorted out, we sort out different watches.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, it's really good. Dino, you've done so much amazing work in breaking down the internal stigma that your fellow firefighters feel in disclosing to their watch and the external stigma that might have been institutionalized from the fire service to them historically. Hopefully that's changed a lot now and for the better. So, what impact have you seen it have, and what work still needs to be done when it comes to that watch as well?

SPEAKER_01

I think there's always work to be done. I think staying stagnant, going, right, we've got it all right, everything's working, we'll leave it. I think by adapting, by growing, by learning, by changing, listening to other services, other people working what works. Like, for example, if you've seen what we did day one and our first walk to what we do now is very different. We're constantly learning, growing, and being open to them conversations. I think most services were the same, but it was very much, well, this is what we've always done, so this is what we do. And I think that was always the issue many years ago when I first started this journey. It's like, no, we don't need that, we've got this. Yeah, but why can't we have this? No, no, no, this is the way we do it. Whereas I see now, if an idea is good, if it's working, people more open to trialing it. Let's give it a go then. That looks like that's going to work, let's trial it. Like I say, this peer-to-peer support we're doing, it's something like I've been discussing many years ago, and it was always like, Oh, yeah, good idea, but never got any legs. Now we're trialling it, and it is really working well. But even now, when it started to a year later, we've adapted, we've changed it, but it's been really well utilised. It's gone from say 20 people using the service to we get well over 100 now, reaching out, talking, having the conversations, you know, not always struggling, but just saying, Look, I think I could do with maybe a chat, or could you check on my watch? So a big change I've seen as well, and it's culture, you know, the way the world views mental health, I think it's more openly spoken about podcasts like you do here, helps that hearing someone else sharing, oh, it's okay is okay to talk about it. Whereas 10 years ago, there wasn't a lot of that, you know. On the news programmes, they talk more openly about it. So, yeah, I see a lot of particularly officers now, whereas before you might go out to an incident and they go, Oh no, you know, I'm alright, I look after my watch, don't want any outside help. We're seeing more now, going, Look, I spoke to my watch, they seem okay, but actually, the nature of what we went out to, I think they could do with someone else checking in with them when they're away from station, give that opportunity. And quite a few have taken us up on that when we've rung, have said, No, actually, I've gone through this, or they might not talk about the incident, just the fact that you've reached out, showed empathy, and actually shown it's not tick boxy, is actually I'm ringing you because I do want to find out how you are. People have started the conversation, I'm fine, and then when we've not rushed them off the phone, we've carried on that conversation. By the end of it, they've gone, Well, actually, I'm going through this at home, or you know, I could do this. So it's allowed us as support. Yeah, I think it's getting better, but we just need to carry on that momentum. Don't get stagnant and go, we've sorted it all.

SPEAKER_00

And for you, Jace, obviously, you're out of the fire service now. Similar question to Dino, what impact are you seeing it have with the lads that come down to the woods? And what do you think still needs to happen to make the situation better as well for your peers who are still in the service?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think I do agree again with Dino, I think it has changed a lot. I mean, I've seen it change a lot. When I first joined, it was definitely a man-up culture. You know, there's guys that were in the 77 strike when I joined, you know, and they had it really hard, and we still had the family atmosphere, but you didn't speak about anything inside your head, really, and that's changed a lot. And I think that's the world in general, to be honest. I think youngsters now, and I'm talking, you know, well, anything from teenagers up to sort of probably something 30 odd years old now, because of the way the world is, exactly like Dino said, like podcasts and stuff, people like yourself that just talk about stuff without any sort of stigma. I think they're exposed to that sort of stuff. I've had I've had my daughter correct me on various things I've said in the past. No. You know, she's 18 and and her brain works very differently to how mine used to work. I think that's a good thing that people can talk about it, because otherwise you'll just explode. I do think the attitude of the youngsters is a little bit different as well, though. So a lot of guys and girls that come to us in the woods are probably late 30s, early 40s up. We don't seem to get very many youngsters come to us because I don't have that physical contact like Dino does with them anymore. I don't know whether that's just their age and them thinking, I'm alright, why do I need to do that? Well, you know, it's preventative as as well as a a medication, if you like, or whatever you want to call it, it will keep your cup, the bottom centimetre, I believe. It doesn't have to be us, it could be anything, it could be walking and talking, it could be open water swimming, it doesn't matter what it is. I think preventative is just as important. And also, I can only speak from my experience in Kent, it's changed a lot since I've joined, so now if you do have a it's not your job, you will get an officer come to station, the crew's taken off the run, so they've actually got time to talk, whereas in the past, you know, you were still on the run, so you were still available for fire calls, whereas now they're off the run. The officer will have had a small amount of training and it is the first step that they will chat and ask everybody if they're okay. And then I believe they give them about two weeks, because invariably most blokes go, I'm alright, don't worry about it. But then they give them a couple of weeks, I believe, and then they normally get back in touch, or they do their best to get back in touch, and then they make it known that if someone wants to come to them sort of privately, they then have the facilities to forward them on to various different places, I mean, depending on how severe it is. I mean, and uh and I think a very unused place is Harcom House within the fire brigade uh stuff. We've got the charities and that, and they've got a couple of sort of properties, one of them being Harcom House, that everybody or a lot of people think you only go there if you've had a broken leg and you need physio on it or something. They will facilitate things for you if you ring them up, and it doesn't have to be a fire brigade related thing, it can be something going on at home or whatever. You give them a quick explanation of what it is, and and 99 times out of a hundred, they will try and facilitate either just for you or even for your family to come down for a few days, week, whatever suits, to just have a bit of space. I mean, you can ask for more when you're down there, or you can literally just go down with your family. They got like little buttling style sort of accommodation on these lovely grounds and stuff, and it's just to give you that little bit of a break. And I think a lot of people within the fire service don't realise that facility is there because some people that's all they need, you know, they don't need deep delve into their childhood and everything else. Sometimes you just need that little breathing space. So I think that sort of message is important to get out, and I'm sure you talk about that sort of stuff anyway, Dino, when you're visiting the stations and that yeah, you're spot on mate, no one knows about it.

SPEAKER_01

I've stayed there, it's fantastic. It's absolutely yeah, done us a world of good. We had a week down there, but yeah, you're right, people think it's only for injury, and when you tell them, like amount of people who come on the walk, we go, why don't you have a break? Harkham, well, I'm not injured. Yeah. You go, you don't have to be physically injured, you can go for your mental health. And I go, Oh.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and some people don't even realise they need it. I bet there's loads of people that have gone down for a few days' break with their family, and they've come back and they think, like they do when they leave the woods, like they do when they've come off a walk, they think they get that little bit of space to themselves and they think, Bloody hell, I needed that. And that's the preventative side, isn't it? There's a lot of that that goes on. Like I say, when people are walking and and stuff, they might not necessarily be on their last bit, getting ready to do whatever to themselves, you know. It's keeping it preventative and it's providing another family, isn't it? And it's what we do in the woods, you know. With us, before you come to us, you get put on a watch out group probably a week to two weeks beforehand. I can hit everyone with the same messages, kit lists, stuff like that, timings, RVs. But also sometimes it promotes a little bit of banter, especially if you've got inter services like between the police and the fire service or different regiments from the military or whatever. No tits, no politics. That is the rules. You can't have that because that can mess it up for all of us, as we've discussed already. But then after a weekend, I put everyone on a group called Ember's members. We've got about 80 or 90 on there now. Some people silence it because it's sometimes when you get a bit of chat going, a bit of band to go in, I would imagine they're in an office or wherever they are, and the phone's going ping, ping, ping, ping, but it's there and it works almost as a self-supporting network as well. So anything from if you need an electrician or a plasterer, to we've had people organise their own walks and their own little camps together and stuff like that, you know. We've had people that have got similar problems that end up chatting, you know, on the site, you know, away from that group, but they've got in touch through that group and they'll chat to each other about those sorts of things. So again, and to bring it back round to the fire service, it's that community, it's that that family sort of unit and things in common and the support network, you know, it works.

SPEAKER_01

And it's looking after people in the retirement, you know, keep 30 years of your life, institutionalised way of life, your second family. You go, the minute you walk off station, you've lost all that, your identity and everything. So I'm sure Jay's the same. We get a real big uptake from retired members because they say it feels like I'm back on a watch, it feels like I'm back in the job again. I can talk to people to get the life I've lived. Talk shop, you know.

SPEAKER_02

And a lot of them miss the banter, don't they? And the that piss taking within that type of person, a service type person, is so important. I get it ripped out of me for being a bit of a midget or ginger air or whatever, but it's funny, it's not personal. I I I don't give a monkeys what you say, it's funny, and you get to give it back, and it is an out there. It's just how it all works with those types of people, you know. And I'm not ginger by the way. It's a filter. Strawberry blonde, yeah, it's a filter, it's strawberry blonde.

SPEAKER_00

The final topic I want to discuss, lads, and it's something that we've again covered already a little bit. I'm calling the hurt, and by this I mean the snotty jobs you go on and the impact it's had on your mental health. So I prefer to call when something happens at the extreme end a post-traumatic stress injury rather than PTSD or disorder, because I think that the word disorder implies that men are broken, it implies that you can't overcome it or heal from it. We've discussed this off air, and also this is outlined in Eugene Lipov's incredible book, The Invisible Machine. So we've discussed all of that. First of all, I want to ask an easy question, and I did give you a heads up about this before we started the pod, which is how did you both feel when you listen to each other's pods, especially around these incidents? So, Dino, you can go first.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'll just forget. Now, don't forget if you're going first, mate, don't forget I've got to go after you, so you've got some nice stuff. That's it.

SPEAKER_01

It's like having your birthday first, isn't it? I'll see what you buy me first. Yeah, how much you spend on me. I think it's with just in general, listening to anyone that does a similar role or just hearing someone talking about anyone's life journey with mental health, it's always really impactful and enlightening. You hear so much similar stuff, and it makes you realise actually, you know, we all say you're not alone, everyone's struggling, but it's times like that when you listen to someone like I've done it many, many times, not just with Jay, but many people you have, particularly in your podcast, when you listen, you go, okay, it's not just me, it's not just me that thinks like that or feels like that or has been through that. So I just think it makes you feel a little bit lighter and a little bit more human and make you feel maybe again, it's hearing someone else's struggles in a weird way makes you feel a little bit better, less lonely. So yeah, I took that from most of the people I listened to on your podcast, but yeah, particularly Jay, because he does a similar job hearing some of the job specific stuff. I go, yeah, I felt like that. Yeah, I've done that. You know, you can just really resonate, you feel a bit more bonded and yeah, certainly less alone.

SPEAKER_00

Jace, how did you feel listening to Dino's then? Make sure you did, though, by the way. Don't lie, because I will call you out if you haven't.

SPEAKER_02

No, I did, I did the other day. I listened to all of them. I thought I'd better do some preparation for this one. It's a bit like being back in the fibergo. So go back a little bit. I think it's really important what you said about the injury disorder difference. I consider myself quite lucky. If I have got PTSD I don't notice it particularly. I really don't I don't have flashbacks, I don't but I can imagine someone and I know it sort of flips to the veteran side of it, because like I said earlier on, a lot of their things seem to be a lot more extreme in an instant, but to then call it a disorder makes you sound like a bit of a wrong, I think, and I don't think that's quite right, and I hadn't really thought about it very hard until we spoke about it off air, and I think the idea of calling it an injury is fantastic because, like you just said, it gives you that thought process of you can heal from this, you know, it's not a disorder, you're not stuck with it forever, you can heal. I don't think whatever it is that's caused that, or whatever series of events has messages caused that are ever going to go away, but you're arming yourself with different ways of dealing with these things and and being able to accept it in your mind, and there are so many different things out there. We offer EFT, I know a lot of people have had EMDR, or again, going for a walk, sitting round a campfire, going swimming, whatever it is, they are all tools to help you accept it in your mind far easier, and that all comes across, like I say, when I've listened to Dino, so I did listen to both your podcasts, mate, and it's the same thing. What I drew from it personally is it's really nice that there's lots of other people out there trying to do the same thing that we're trying to do at Embers. It's not one size fits all. There are probably a lot of people that don't sit in the woods, they don't like it. I mean, I've had people that have the lady that does the EFT for us, I've invited her down to come and see because she I consider as part of the team, and she's like, No chance, I'm a five-star girl, you know, I like five-star hotels and everything else, and it's not for me. But then conversely, we had a police officer came to us that was uh, you know, having a few ups and downs in his life, and it was his governor that recommended us to him, and he self-confessed, you know, again, he likes his hotels, he likes his aftershave, he likes his smart clothes and stuff, and that ain't what you get in the woods, it really isn't. But he's come to us, I don't know, about three, four, five times now. His governor said she couldn't believe the difference it made when he came back, and he enjoys coming to us now as well. So I think as well, off the back of that, listening to Dino stuff, if people can do it, is to be open-minded about different things and give different things a go. You might come to the woods and think this is shit, but then you might think, All right, well, I'll try one of the walks that's going on, and you might think this is a bit of me. So to be open-minded as well. So I think what you're doing by getting people like myself, Dino, and the various other people that are trying to help in them different ways, and they're all different. I think that's brilliant because there are so many different things that people can do to help themselves, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Dino's giving me about 15 guests now, so I owe a couple pints. He's giving me quite a lot of guests. Every time I'm short on guests, I just message Dino and say, You got any guests for me? Dino? And he gives me about 10 stuff.

SPEAKER_02

He's a geezer, he's man about town, he knows what he's got, huggy bear, isn't he?

SPEAKER_00

What was the one thing that you learned about each other from listening to each other's pods?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, can I go first? And then you can slag me off afterwards if I'm not right. No, I think what I learned is we've all got the same common goal, and ultimately is to help people. It's a bonus. I really enjoy doing it. That's where I said earlier, and I get my kick, adrenaline rush, whatever you want to call it, from helping people, and that is what drives me personally to spend time sitting in front of a computer because I don't enjoy being in front of a computer trying to speak to different companies about getting discounts on stuff, booking flights for people, all that sort of thing, I don't think's very exciting at all. I'd rather be in the woods, I'd rather be taking some people to Scotland or whatever. But you do all that because you get that uh fulfilment when you've done it, and I think Dino's probably exactly the same. It's that not the end goal is your fulfillment, the end goal is to help people, but you get that feeling along the road, and that gives you the drive and the aggression and the you know to keep pushing towards it, and you see the results and you're like, I think Dino said it earlier on, if if I've not me, because it isn't all just me, it's a team. I have so many people that help me, but if we have saved one person's life, that's it, cracked it. If Ember shuts tomorrow, we've cracked it, because we've stopped one person from taking their own life. That's the goal, isn't it? And I and I think that's the goal for all of us different people that set up these different things. If you save one person and you fail tomorrow, you're done, in my opinion. Anyway, I don't know about you, Dino.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I I always said when we started our walk, like I say, I'd never thought we'd growing anyway, but I always said I didn't think anyone would join me because one, I know what it's like out there, people open up talking, are people gonna do it? I I always had the opinion exactly the same as you, and it's sort of my ethos. If I can help one person, then it's all validated. You know, I remember early days, exactly like you talk about Harcombe, exactly that. I had a firefighter join a walk like very early days when we were just one walk. Said he was fine, not a problem. I just want to support what you do. Went round the circle, he heard a few guys opening up, got to him, he then came out of loads of stuff, he's really going through it. So I spoke to him on the walk, and again, we're not counsellors, so we don't give advice, but we can give signposts, and I just said, That's a lot of deal, you're getting help for that. His reply was, My wife, my kids, no one knows I'm going through this. I've been struggling for two years. I weren't expecting to actually talk today because I've never spoken about it, but it felt good. So I said, Sounds like you could do with a little break. I can't afford a break on top of everything else. And I said to him, Well, what about the charity? You know, Firefighters charity. You can go to Harcombe, get in contact, we won't cost you anything, but I'm not injured. So you don't have to be injured. They've got a lodge there, you go on your own, or you can go with your kids and your wife, you can have it structured, or you can just have a bit of a chill out time just in a nice environment. So I give him the details, four months later. He turned up and said, Since he spoke to me, he went with his wife and kids. When he was there, he's open and honest, and they've been getting support going forwards for that. So for me, that was what we're getting on for five years ago. From that moment, I was like, this could all end tomorrow. I've achieved then what I set out to. I found someone that struggled in silence for over two years, and you won't mind me talking about on there. So very early days, it was like, well, you know, we've found someone. Anything else now is a bonus, you know, that's fine. If it all crashed tomorrow, we've achieved what we set out. But as we've gone on, it's grown, and I could tell you like so many stories like that. But for me, I always hold on to that going, and it proved anyone that wasn't very supportive in the beginning, we were right. You know, where would that person be had he'd not turn up? Because two years of silence, one walk, now getting help. To me, it just validated for what you do, Jay, what everyone else does with the non-clinical, offering a bit of empathy, how powerful it can be. Preventative, isn't it? It's yeah, it's stopping it, getting to that horrendous point where people feel they're they're in despair and there's only one thing left to do, you know. Yeah, exactly that. We have so many people turn up because that's one message I wanted to get around when I first went talking to stations was 100% if you're struggling, it's a safe space to talk. But even if you're not struggling, you want to day out change of scenery because don't let it get there.

SPEAKER_00

We've got to start stopping men from jumping into the river, not just when they're in the river and they're drowning. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01

100% because I had a lot of conversations the other days going, oh, it's nice to know your walks there, Dean, if I never ever need it. I went, What do you mean if you ever need it? A walk's good for anyone. Oh, well, I can come even if I'm not struggling. I went, 100%, come. It's um a social network, like-minded people, out in the open, walk, nature, it's gonna do you good. And then if something changes and you want to talk, it gives you that opportunity. I'm lucky I've got a social network. Not everyone has that. You know, some people literally do their job, the watch is their life, go home and do nothing on their days off. So now they join us for a bit of a social. So I'll say 100% if you're struggling and want to talk, you can. There's never any pressure to talk, is another thing, a bit like yours, Jay. You know, I know when I was there, it was like, don't feel you have to say anything if you don't want to. So a lot of people say as well, yeah, but I don't feel comfortable opening up. You don't have to. We make it very clear when we go around that circle, and some people go, No, I'm alright, I'm fine. That's okay. Different people get different things out of everything.

SPEAKER_00

Let's reflect now. I want to ask one more question before we wrap up, which is if there was one thing the listeners could take, whether they're firefighters, whether they're retired, whether they're not firefighters at all, from each of your respective journeys, what do you think it would be and why?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think the ultimate is that they're not on their own. Listening to lots of people that we've had through us at the woods and stuff like that, when they get to that final point when they're gonna end it all, if you like, they feel completely alone. Where we are in the woods, I might not understand how they are at that point, but like Dino said if you said actually, I think, Freddie, if we can get them before they get to that point and explain to them that you're not on your own. All the various different things, you know, the walking and talking, us, swimming, whatever it is, most of the things that are set up like this to help these different people all have facilities to either signpost them to various different places that will help them, or they can just keep coming to us and get their fix, but ultimately they're not on their own. There are a lot of different things out there, you know, that can help them before they get to that point. It doesn't even have to sometimes be that individual, it could be that person's wife, son, dad, brother. You could have a mate, Freddie, or Dino could have a mate, and you could realise they're they're struggling a little bit, and you could give them one of our leaflets, one of Dino's leaflets or whatever, or say, you know, ring one of us up or whoever.

SPEAKER_00

I've done that mate.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly that. It's all of that. So it's the onus isn't just on that person sometimes. Sometimes it's on the people that are around and, you know, someone on a watch or whatever, saying, Have you thought about this? Ultimately, they've got to make that call themselves, but sometimes I think sometimes some of these people don't even realise they're in that position. And it's not till they can step away from everything, possibly Harkham House, possibly sitting around a fire, possibly on a walk, and they say, Fucking hell, that's me. You know, like Dino said, he had someone open up who didn't realise. I mean, we've had exactly the same, it was actually a guy from the Falklands, actually, he was talking to us. His governor, when he was down in the Falklands, did a an interest talk for us, and he brought one of his guys along, and at the beginning of the talk he didn't actually want to tell his story, which is fine, no one has to. Got to the end when Philippa was kind of closing everything down. Philippa's our um she's a police negotiator, so she kind of kind of controls that sort of thing in a very skillful way. And he kind of put his hand up and he said, Can I can I say something? Well, I knew beforehand that he'd done the different military type places where you can go to help the heroes combat stress, they're doing brilliant work, but for him they didn't work. He told his whole story, you know. I think I got something in my eye when he was saying it, probably an ember out of the fire or something. Do you know what I mean? But his governor that was sitting there came and found me afterwards and he said, Jace, he said, I've known him since before 1982, I've never heard that story. So sometimes people don't always realise themselves, but you put them in the right situation. I believe the key point for what we do is with the right people, i.e., people that might not have experienced that actual event, but they've experienced shitty stuff basically, they get it. Whether that's going through military training, fire brigade training, they've been to snotty job, doesn't matter what it is, but they get it. And I think, and I'm not dissing all the different therapies out there because they're amazing and they do some amazing stuff, but sometimes for people sitting in an office with someone's got these diplomas on the wall and they've never been on a fire engine, they've never experienced that sort of thing. For you to then talk to those types of people, I think some of our people find that very hard, which is why the various different other therapies that like Dino set up and we've set up works because you're in that surrounding of people that they've got the same feelings inside, you know. You see them nodding, you know, in the circle when things are going on, they'll be like, I get that, I get that. So that's how it works, I think.

SPEAKER_00

I always say build the space and build the trust, and men will talk. All the men don't talk, the men won't talk. It's all bollocks, mate. It's all bollocks. Build the space, build the trust, and they will talk. Dean, final point from you, mate.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think your spot on there, mate, and I think what you're doing, what we're all doing, is proving that because men are turning up in numbers, sitting there talking, opening up because you provided that safe space.

SPEAKER_00

But I can't get them to shut up, like you two.

SPEAKER_01

What time you got to go out? Yeah, we'll keep you talking, mate. Don't worry. That's it, we're here till Monday. But yeah, I think there's lots of things in there. One, providing them safe spaces, letting people know it's okay. It's having the confidence as well, people doing a little bit of knowledge on you know how to have open conversation for mental health, whether it's a mental wealth first day, cool to give you a bit of understanding. Because I think a lot of people want to approach people when they've noticed people changing and acting differently, but it's thinking, I don't quite know how to say it, I don't know how to understand.

SPEAKER_00

Media emotional intelligence, mate, because yeah, man, that moment of disclosure is massive. You respond back, you say, I'm here for you, mate, give me a few chat, and they'd actually chat to you, and all you give them back is platitudes, like it'll get better or it'll pass and all this, they're gonna be like, I'm not fucking talking to you ever again.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, this is a big thing. I did say the other day on a fiber gay platform, which I was very nice, they invited me to talk, but I was talking exactly about that how to have conversations, things not to do, and it's things like realising you don't have to have all the answers, you know. You know, if I'm sitting there trying to solve everything, diagnose you and all that, it's not helpful. I just sometimes just sit in there and having you talk is enough, and people don't realise that enough. People want to chip in or oh, I've been through that, I've done this, or insert yourself in, don't do it. Yeah, not in not in a mean way, but it's educating yourself. Also, a big thing that I wouldn't say winds me up, but I find a bit frustrating. There's so much great stuff out there now, available, but it's not a competition. Mental health is not a competition, you know. We're all doing it for the right reasons, we're helping people. So let's let people know the vast support that's out there. I promote my stuff, but I like to promote everyone else's because there might not be a walk in your area, you might not want to tend to walk, you're not but be part of the services. So by me saying you can go swimming, dogs, you can go fishing, you can go as long as you get help, that's all the end goal should be. But I see so many people that have their own little niches that are really good, really helping, they're wonderful people, but it's almost like no, no, no, I only have to promote mine because I just want to build mine. It's like we need to let people know the vast stuff's out there, you know. We need to get back on that page of let's show the wealth that's out there, let's help each other, mate.

SPEAKER_00

It's a brotherhood, let's help each other. That's what I've been trying to build for so many years. It's like I get it completely. Like, yeah, I have it. I build up people who support me, and I and they do the same for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I have it so much, and again, no real fault between people because they're doing great things, but yeah, we have it all the time. Put this, put that, yeah, we'll do that, and then it's you know, you look on theirs, and it's actually no one other than themselves. I'm like, yeah, but you're like way up north, so you've got followers way down south, they're never gonna turn up to your thing up north, so you're now almost blocking them finding support. But for me, the one thing I'm really sort of promoting, particularly in our service, but again, I've done talks about this with other services, is because it's something I wish I was told when I first joined the job, you don't have to see and be exposed to every incident. You know, there's so many incidents I look back over my 23 years career that I've turned up, and there's nothing we're gonna do because there's already appliance there with a crew dealing with it, we can't even get anywhere near it, but I'll still go over and have a look, see it, and then they go, right, you can go, you're not needed. So I sort of try and talk to people say, limit your exposure. It's not saying don't do your job. If you're needed, 100% get involved. But I've seen so many scenes that we've not actually been needed or we weren't gonna do anything there. It was the old way of thinking when I first joined Joy, it's very different. The thought process was the more you're exposed to, the more you get used to it. So I remember very early days turning up to an instant we weren't needed, but being taken in. Have a look, you've got to get used to these scenes. I look back 23 years later and think that didn't make me a better firefighter, didn't make me more resilient. It's just one thing I can still vividly remember. So we're very keen on talking about, think about that. Definitely with new people joining job. You've got 30-year career, 300, 600 incidents. You'll have plenty of time to see that. You're gonna see enough and you have to deal with. Let's maybe think about do I need to look at that scene? Do I need to get involved? You know, if you do, 100%. But whether it's because you're inquisitive, nosy, worried about looking like you're shirking your responsibility, not doing your job, we go and we have a look. So it's trying to get that different mindset, and a lot of officers are doing it now, they're turning up at scene. Wait there, I'll go over, right? Guys, hang back here because we're probably not going to be needed, right? See you later, we're off. So that's a whole team now that hasn't seen that potentially traumatic incident, whereas before they would have all seen it, not actually done anything, gone back 30 years later, like you used to always say, Jay, with the you know, topping out, that's something else. And I always say it's not necessary when you're at work because when we're in that environment, I think it keeps a lot of thoughts at bay. I'm with my watch, we're laughing, we're joking, because I'm in I'm fine. Now retired, I've not got that camaraderie or whatever. I'm now on my own, I've now gonna have to start probably thinking about that stuff because I've not got that distraction anymore.

SPEAKER_02

What's nice is at the time you can talk to the guys that there that have done the same job, but now you can't. So, and what you're saying about not letting people snorty bits, yeah, and not seeing the snotty stuff, that's prevention, isn't it? Which I think is a brilliant idea, mate.

SPEAKER_01

But the big thing I think is for me, the one thing I'd say to everyone find that outlet, find the thing that works for you. Everyone needs an outlet, find that one person or place that you can talk to openly because it's important. And don't get me wrong, there's a lot of people in my life I would not open up to because you wouldn't get a response, it'd be about them or whatever. If you haven't got that person, places like Samaritans, people don't realise they think it's just a crisis line. 100% you're a crisis, you ring it. But two in the morning, I've got a bit of anxiety, I can ring the number, bit of empathy, offload, talk what I'm going through. You know, kids, childline, places like that can be a place for them to ring as youngsters. A person they don't know can find empathy. There's you know, firefighters, charity, councillors, whatever it is, but I always say to five, it's really important to have that place where you can offload and talk. Come on our walks, go Jay's thing, go to various other outlets with like minded people that you can sit there without judgment and go, do you know what? I'm having a bit of a rough time at the moment. Just saying it, getting out to the world, people underestimate, I think, realising how much just getting out into the world can actually change your whole day. They think, oh Has talking gonna help me? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying talking's the cure, but even this, like I say, for hearing people starting podcasts and that can change someone's day, feel less alone and all that. But yeah, I think it's really important. Find someone that you can be open and honest with, and if you can't, use one of the other outlets that are available to us now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, on that one, everything we've talked about, I think I agree with 100%. But also there is a small percentage of people out there, and one of them was me when I had all my stuff going on. Sometimes you not you can fix it all on your own, but for me, when all my stuff was going on, I used to just like I said to you, Freddie, I grabbed the hammock, I grabbed the beer, a bit of state, and I used to just go to the woods and sit there for the night, listen to the animals and stuff, and it's about the getting outside of it. I mean, especially we talked earlier on about some of the younger generation, they've grown up with their mobile phones and everything else, and you can do scroll and look at all this stuff. But sometimes just putting all that shit down and going out in nature and even going for a walk on your own, take your earphones out, leave his phone at home or switch it off or whatever it is and listen. I mean, that's a bit like a forest bathing-y type thing, but it does work, it just gives you that time to breathe for an hour, for the night, whatever it is, go swimming, do whatever it is, find something. It doesn't have to be with a group like ours, you know, it might not suit you. But even that, just getting out and just trying to turn the volume down in your head a little bit, you know, is another thing that also works. And it doesn't cost anything.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is the thing, this is the one thing I I sort of talk about as well is when you say to someone, get help, get support, their go-to is always like, Oh, well, that's clinical, doctors, yeah, you know, counselors, all that sort of people shut down, go, I'm not going to get help. But actually, therapy can be anything. It could be camping, it could be listening to podcasts, it could be walking, it could be tennis, it could be socialising. That can be people's therapy. And when you talk people like going to the gym is a lot of people's therapy. It doesn't have to be one thing, and people go, Oh, right, okay. So I always say to people, half a day, sorry, half half a day, half an hour every day, do something for yourself. You'll be surprised how much of a difference that can really make. Just having that 30 minutes downtime, whether it's watching a film, going to the gym, listening to a podcast, whatever it is, that can be your therapy. Therapy doesn't always have to be clinical. There's a place for that. But if we like you say, if we maintain definitely when you're in a good place where you feel like you're in a good place, doing that regularly could potentially stop you getting to that place where you need anything more.

SPEAKER_00

At the risk of keeping us all here till Monday, I'm gonna wrap it up now. So, Dino, Jay, thank you so much for coming back on the Just Checking In podcast, lads, and talking to me.

SPEAKER_02

Cheers, man. Good morning, welcome. Thanks for having us, mate. It's good.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's all we've got time for on this episode of the Just Checking In pod. A big thank you to Dean and Jace for being my special guests and for letting me check back in with them. I'll put some links to where you can find out more about Walk and Talk 909 and Embers in the show notes as always. Thank you to all the ventors who've checked in on this episode. Remember, if you've liked what you've heard, give it a share on social media by tagging us at VentHelp UK. Tell your friends, family, or work colleagues about us. If you're feeling generous, give us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what we're doing at Vent, please consider supporting us by going to patreon.com slash venthelpuk or make a one-off donation to our PayPal. Both those links are on our link tree. That's linktr.ee slash vent helpuk. We hope to check in with you again very soon. And remember, guys, it is always okay to be a good question.

Contributor

Freddie Cocker

Host