JCIP #362 - Mick Rowe

In episode 362 of The Just Checking In Podcast we checked in with Mick Rowe.

Mick is the Founder of Suicide Sucks C.I.C, a mental health organisation centred around suicide prevention, which aims to provide a safe space to talk about suicide, grief and mental health. 

Through Suicide Sucks, Mick published her first documentary as a filmmaker about her brother’s death from suicide in 1996, who was just 27 years old at the time. 

Suicide Sucks also has its own podcast, which Mick hosts from her camper van, and also puts on her own events. 

These include one staged radio play, two stand up to suicide comedy nights (one in 2025 and one in 2026), and a special art exhibition called ‘Voices of Hope’.

In March 2024, she set up Suicide Sucks as a Community Interest Company (CIC), and since then has started her first campaign called ‘Have you got 8 Minutes Mate?' 

In this episode we discuss her journey with Suicide Sucks, how the death of her brother fuelled her desire to start it, a deep dive into the documentary, the imposter syndrome she felt around filming it, and some of her favourite moments running it so far. 

For Mick’s mental health journey, we discuss the grief of her brother's death, the factors which contributed to it, a mental breakdown she had when she turned the same age as her brother was when he died and how the grief almost cost Mick her marriage.

We also discuss a serious back injury in 2018 when she two slipped discs and had a sciatica, why the grief played a role in it, how she recovered from it through a non-traditional method and what she learned about the relationship between her physical and mental health.

As always, #itsokaytovent

You can find out more about Suicide Sucks here: https://www.suicidesucks.co.uk/.

You can watch Mick's documentary here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjaAVAeFogU.

You can follow Suicide Sucks on social media below: 

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TRIGGER WARNING: this podcast contains a deep discussion of grief, loss and the impact that losing a loved one to suicide can have, which some listeners may find distressing or upsetting, so please listen with caution.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Trigger Warning, this podcast contains a deep discussion about grief, loss, and the impact that losing a loved one to suicide can have, which some listeners may find distressing or upsetting. So please listen with caution. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. In each episode, I check in with a special guest. We have a natta and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. My special guest for this episode is Mick Rowe. Mick is the founder of Suicide Sucks CIC, a mental health organization centered around suicide prevention, which aims to provide a safe space to talk about suicide, grief, and mental health. Through Suicide Sucks, Mick published her first documentary as a filmmaker about her brother's death from suicide in 1996, who was just 27 years old at the time. Suicide Sucks also has its own podcast, which Mick hosts from her camper van, and she also puts on her own events, including one staged radio play so far, two stand-up to suicide comedy nights, one in 2025 and one in 2026, and a special art exhibition called Voices of Hope, which we'll talk in depth about in the podcast. In March 2024, she set up Suicide Sucks as a community interest company and since then has also started her first campaign called Have You Got A Minutes Mate? In this episode, we discuss her journey with Suicide Sucks, how the death of her brother fueled her desire to start it, a deep dive into the documentary, and the imposter syndrome she felt around filming it, and some of her favourite moments running the organization so far. For Mick's mental health journey, we discuss the suicide grief of her brother, the factors which contributed to his death, a mental health breakdown she had when she turned the same age as her brother was when he died, and how the grief almost caused Mick to lose her marriage. We also discuss a serious back injury Mick had in 2018 when she slipped two discs and had a sciatica. We talk about why the grief played a role in it, how she recovered from it through a non-traditional method, and what she learned about the relationship between her physical and her mental health as a result. So this is how my conversation with Mick Rowe went. When our mutual friend and friend of the pod, Mark Taylor, connected us, I initially thought I was about to speak to a big six foot four lad from Barnsley with your name, but I figured out it was a nickname after we chatted. Thank you for the work you do with Suicide Sucks, Fighting the Good Fight up in Yorkshire. As a Huddersfield town fan myself for my sins, Yorkshire is a second home for me. I go up there often. How are you on this Saturday morning?

SPEAKER_00 3:29

I'm good, thank you. Yeah, the sun is shining. I had a lovely night last night with a friend of mine, so yeah, it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Excellent news. We have got so much to discuss, Mick, and your documentary was such a powerful one. I want to dive into it in depth on this podcast as well as discuss lots of other things. So without further delay, are you ready to start the show and talk all about your wonderful journey?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

I want to start your podcast, Mick, by talking about all the amazing work you do with Suicide Sucks. So take me back to the beginning. It's 2024. Why did you decide to start it? What was the inspiration behind the name? And what did you want to achieve with it?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah, so I basically made a documentary, and off the back of the documentary, it made me think I want to do more. I want to do something that is regular and consistent, that will help to raise awareness about suicide and mainly get people talking about suicide without avoiding the language. So that was the crux to it for me. And that is why I decided to set up a community interest company called Suicide Sucks, because nobody can then avoid the topic. It is there in black and white, you know, it says it on the tin, you can talk about it. So the name really was just a bit kind of confrontational, really. And a lot of people, when I came up with the name, were like, Are you sure? Are you sure you want to call it that? Because you're gonna have problems on social media platforms. And and also people were saying it's gonna make people feel uncomfortable. And I was like, That's the point now. That's the whole point. That's the whole point. So I was very adamant about the name. And I should have said that the reason I did the uh documentary was because I lost my brother to suicide in 1996. So suicide has always been something for the last 30 years that has been on my radar, basically.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

I want to dive into that documentary now. You filmed it just after the COVID-19 pandemic, and it follows four people who've experienced either suicidal ideation or been bereaved by suicide grief. So, why did you decide to focus on these four stories before we go into a little bit more depth about each one?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

I've always known about the charity papyrus, and I wanted to do something to raise money for papyrus, and I'm not the kind of person to hike up mountains or do things like that. So I thought, do you know what? I've been an actor, I've been a presenter, I know what it's like on that side of the camera. Maybe I could have a go at doing the other side of the camera, which I'd got no experience in, other than just, you know, playing around. And I thought, I wonder if I could make a documentary. Would people talk about it? Would people get on board? And I literally, I was just going to my roller skating class and I was sat in the car before I went in, and I thought, do you know what? I'm gonna stop bloody umming and arring about it and putting barriers in place, and I'm just gonna put a post on my community group in Penniston, and I'm just gonna say, This is what I'm thinking of. Would anybody be up for coming on board? And I couldn't believe the response I got. I had so many people reach out to say, Yeah, yeah, I'm up for that, I'll do that. And it blew me away a bit, to be honest. But what it did was solidify the fact that people did want to talk about it. And the fact that I had people from both sides contact me, you know, from those that had made an attempt and those that had had a bereavement within their family. And I thought, I'm on to something here, you know, this is gonna work, I'm gonna do it. So I did about over 20 kind of pre-interviews and chats with people before narrowing it down to those four. And I knew that I wanted two of each, so to speak. And I also knew that I wanted, you know, somebody a bit younger and and things like that to reflect the fact that it doesn't discriminate. So, yeah, the four people were chosen quite specifically for the various reasons, such as the first lady Jess, who knew that people who worked in the vet industry were one of the highest suicide rates because of the stresses.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Well documented now. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah. And then Mary, who lost her mum at the age of nine. They're very different stories, and they're all obviously very touching. And then I also wanted to try and get a bit of balance about signposting and support as well. So, you know, I I do that as well, and I I do interview one of the lads from Andy's Man Club in there as well.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

You said something quite interesting to me off air. You said you felt a certain degree of imposter syndrome about filming the documentary, or maybe before it. Why was that?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, mainly because, as I briefly mentioned, I have had experience of the other side of the camera. But actually, filming, editing, sound, music, all of that, I didn't really have much knowledge of. So there's always that element, isn't there, in anything that anybody does of imposter syndrome, of who am I, even to discuss suicide almost, you know, what do I know? And it took a while for me to realise that lived experience is so key, and to me, if I can say it, more vital than any training in some things, you know, any qualifications, because you've been at the rock face type of thing, and you you know how it feels. So I have overcome that now, obviously. But at that time, the whole concept of making a film, I mean, I didn't even know if I could do it on I've got a Samsung phone and a tripod, and I've, you know, invested in some mics and stuff like that, but I had no idea if I could do it. The lighting, oh my god. Do you know? I watched it again for the first time a couple of days ago. Hadn't watched it since then, you know, back in 2020, or whenever it was I made it. And I was like, I was in awe of myself, if I'm honest. Because I thought, do you know what? Considering I'd had no experience, I mean, yes, there's things I'd have done differently. There's certain camera angles and lighting that I would have changed. But I only know that now because I have also now worked as crew in TV production. I did that for about a year and a half, so I learned a lot during that, but it was after the event.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

You mentioned one of those stories earlier, which is Jess. And Jess is in the veterinary industry. She experiences suicidality, and in her moment of deep suicidality, she actually calls the police on herself, something which I think sadly a lot of men wouldn't do in that moment. Do you think that shows A how resilient and capable she was to do that even in that moment? But also B, the importance of reaching in for men versus telling them to reach out, as the mainstream I believe tells them from sadly a bit of an uninformed position.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, I think that is such an interesting concept, reaching in. That's something I've given a lot of thought to since we spoke. And I think it is so, so powerful. And the fact that, as you know, I've got a podcast, and the fact that many people on that podcast who I interview, it's actually the moment that they reached in that enabled them to reach out, if you get me. And I do think that there is a kind of innate difference between men and women in that respect. You know, I'm not saying that no man can reach in, obviously not, but I think it's harder. I do think it's harder because I'd think that we're taught that it's not a very masculine thing to do, to reach in and to sit and think about what we need and how we can help ourselves. And that helping yourself might be calling the police, you know. So I think what Jess did was mainly out of desperation, but she knew that she needed something, and that was the only way forward that she could see.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Just to be clear, it might have got lost in translation there. So when I say reach in, I mean others to reach into the person who's struggling, whereas the person themselves reaching out to services. So I think that currently the conversation tells men, oh, if you're in crisis, reach out to someone, reach out to someone. And now there's lots of problems with that because A, people who are mentally ill or severely mentally ill, I should say, maybe aren't capable of doing that because they're mentally ill, that's the point. And also B, when men do reach out to a lot of support services, whether that's domestic abuse, whether that's sexual abuse, whether that's something else entirely, whether that's a crumbling NHS system, they're met with barriers or obstacles or a bad response. So when we're telling them to reach out and then they say, Well, I've reached out, what do I do now? Because I'm getting rejected from the system. Do you see what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 13:09

I do. I do see exactly what you mean. And I mean, that's probably a podcast on its own, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Of course it is, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

About the fact that there isn't the capacity and the money for people to necessarily reach in to people and and spot those signs and to lift them out of that hole, I suppose. I get you on that.

unknown 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

And also men and women present their severe mental health illness traits in different ways as well. You know, women might outwardly express emotion on average, whereas men, it might come in the form of anger, or it might come in the form of withdrawing from society, it might come in the form of performing badly at work, for example, or chucking themselves into work too much. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah, I do. And also the opposite, you know, suddenly being quiet and becoming quite outgoing and, you know, suddenly booking holidays or something like that. Anything that's out of character, I suppose. But yeah, I like that. And I mean, we'll probably talk about this later, but you know, the eight minutes mate thing that I've got going, the campaign that we've got is one of those ways that now I can see clearly links to reaching in. So Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

That's why I loved it. When Jess was in that moment, she said something I found very interesting, actually. She said, My car stopped me, as her car was her passion in life. And the factors behind her suicidality were domestic abuse and a toxic work environment. But what I found really uplifting in this current conversation of grifting and men and women polarized completely and all this other stuff, was that she said to her current partner, I owe him my life. Was that quite uplifting to hear for you?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Absolutely. Yeah. And again, on the podcast, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of people that state, you know, they wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the support that they received from their partner who just stuck with them and encouraged them rather than, you know, any force. It's very gentle. And the whole car thing as well, when we're trying to help people to see that there are other options and that there's still hope in life, it's all about trying to tap into that one tiny little thing that might just spur somebody on to keep going. I love that. And I I did the papyrus assist course, and that focuses on that a lot, doesn't it? You're just having a conversation until something just lands where you think, oh, they used to play the guitar when they were younger, or anything really tiny that you could almost encourage, you know, why don't you pick the guitar up again? Or, you know, it's your car, you know, you love your car. And there's something so simple but so beautiful and magical about that, trying to hook onto that lifesaver.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah, you've got to find the hope springboard, basically, when you do assist. That's the thing. I want to talk about Nicola now, because we talked earlier just now about when men reach out and they are often met with a negative response. And it sounds like when I watched the interview that Nicola's husband experienced that because he expressed deep suicidality, and not just deep suicidality, but a plan in quite great detail to his GP and he was still sent home afterwards. How did that interview change your perception about the mainstream messaging around men in particular? Before we talk about the aftercare side.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

So hard. It was such a hard listen, that really, because you know, like you said earlier, we're encouraging people to reach out, and they do, and you're faced with the same story over and over again. It's a 10-month waiting list, or there's nothing I can do, or you know, here's some medication. Yeah, it's depressing. It's depressing to hear that over and over again. And again, that's why I think that we have to club together almost as just peers and friends to to try and be that support that they're not getting from professional services. It was hard that, because it felt so avoidable. You really felt like that was a life lost that didn't need to be lost. You know, it's a crime. It's shocking. And especially probably because he was a man, you know. I think that they often get brushed off a bit more at the doctors because it's like, you know, man up, all of that. But yeah, it was hard that.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Sadly, the aftercare after her partner's death from suicide also seemed completely non-existent. It's why I'm so passionate about post-vention suicide grief support, which thankfully is a lot better now versus when her partner died. And that's thanks to organizations like yourself, Suicide and Co. who I've had on the podcast, Bags of Strive had on the podcast, Sobs. List goes on, right? Given what you went through in 1996, Mick, and we'll talk about this in depth obviously later, did you relate to that lack of aftercare quite strongly given 1996 was a different andromeda, let alone universe, when it comes to mental health awareness and suicide intervention awareness?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah, I did. I mean, I find this quite difficult to talk about because I didn't have any help. I didn't get any counselling, I didn't speak to anybody about it other than, you know, family. But I didn't want to. So if somebody had tried to get me to, it wasn't the right time for me forever, really. I think that really you know, it was 25 years or whatever until I put my back out, which we'll talk about. But so I wouldn't have been aware that there was a lack of help because I didn't try and source any help. And again, that might be from historical, ancestral, how you brought up, and you know, you just get on with it, and you know I think my character as well, I'm quite uh I can compartmentalise and I'm quite out of sight, out of mind. So I just kind of park and move on. So yeah, I can't really comment on whether there was a lack of support because I didn't I didn't look for it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

You then tell Mary's story of suicide grief, which is completely unique in the context of the film and the other interviewees because she lost her mum to suicide when she was just nine years old, so a child. And something I found really weird about her interview as well, not what she said, but how people reacted to it, because she said everyone wants to know how she did it, which I thought wasn't just massively inappropriate and insensitive, but quite weird. Because I just imagine, like, if you ask that question and then someone tells you in quite graphic detail, you're gonna feel pretty rubbish after that as well. This film you did was over four years ago now, possibly more. But why do people still act in that nosy way around suicide grief?

SPEAKER_00 20:36

You see, again, I have a different perspective on this, Freddie. I'm more than happy to talk about how. Okay. I know. So I I'm like it was interesting for me hearing her say that because I come from a different perspective. I'm like, I'm happy to talk about it. You know, I'm more than happy to talk about how. And interestingly, on my podcast, I wanted to talk about how. Really? But I couldn't. So I did originally in a f in a few of the episodes which I edited in the end afterwards because I was so panicked about being cancelled and taken off. But I wanted to talk about that because I felt like it was quite important for somebody listening to hear that person's journey to thinking about it, so that the person listening would think, oh my god, I'm not crazy, I'm not mad. Do you get where I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 21:37

I hear you. I think there's a balance, right? It's the detail, I think, which we need to be really careful about. So saying like they died by, I wouldn't begrudge anyone saying that, but it's people going, Well, how do they do it in detail? That's what I took from the question or the answer, sorry. Where she said, people want to find out how they did it. And for me, obviously, I completely respect that everyone's got Different views on this. But I found that quite weird because it's it's a very, very private detail for the person who's gone through it. And it feels like they were, I don't know, just poking around in a place they shouldn't be doing.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yeah. She'd obviously had different experiences. But again, to me, this is all about education and informing people of how to have these discussions, isn't it? I mean, you know, it's quite simple to just say, do you want to talk about it? Are you happy to share more details? That's all you need to do, isn't it? And then it's not the instant response.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Oh, how did they do it? It's like, what?

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, yeah. Then you can say, No, I don't really want to go into detail, but you know. So again, it's about having honest conversations and knowing how to have those honest conversations. But there's nothing worse to me than a conversation going like this. Oh, you know, yeah, I lost my brother in 96, he took his own life. And then somebody's saying, Oh, right, sorry about that. And then that's it. The conversation's dead. That to me is worse. It's weird, isn't it? Because yeah, but that's just me. You know, I might be weird. I don't know, but hey, we're all a little bit weird. Well, yeah. But yeah, so to me, I suppose that's part of this as well. You know, I want people to know that I'm happy to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

She also said quite heartbreakingly, it would have been a lot easier if she had died in any other way than that. And again, I think that plays into this whole maybe nosy narrative and people trying to pry into her life. What do you think needs to change here then for people bereaved by suicide, where they no longer feel the way Mary does?

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah. I think it is changing. And I think that people are becoming more aware of the fact that it's a mental health issue. You know, it's not just, you know, people used to refer to those that took their own life as selfish, you know. And I think that narrative is changing. People are more educated about it. But I think for Nicola, oh, sorry, for Mary, I get exactly what she's saying because, and I suppose that links to what I was saying before. If it was cancer, you sometimes have a bit more of a dialogue about that. Because somebody will say, Oh God, yeah, my granddad died of cancer. It was a brutal, it was this, it was that, or you know, my dad's got dementia. You know, if they died because of dementia, you can have a bit more of a dialogue about it and conversation. Whereas when it's suicide, it's just more difficult. It's just more difficult. So I do agree with that. If I could have said my brother got knocked over by a boss, there's a different mentality from both sides. Whereas when somebody's died by a suicide, there's that inference of judgment on what was happening in their life, or that potentially they were selfish or weak for doing it. And and it's just so misplaced. You don't get that with anything else. You know, you don't get that with an accident or cancer, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

The final person you interviewed was Sam. He was the only man you interviewed, and he had direct experience of suicidality and an attempt to take his own life. He described what he went through in this way. It was a sea of black emotions that crashed over me at certain points, and also it was like a hurricane inside my own head. How did you react to that?

SPEAKER_00 25:40

So, um, I mean, I've got goosebumps now, you know, every time I hear that, and obviously because Sam was the closest in age, and obviously he was male, it was really hard to hear because of the comparisons for my brother. And he's so poetic when he describes how he felt, and again, I just feel like those honest descriptions of how you feel are so crucial because most people can relate to feeling like that if they're honest at some point in their life, and it's big, you know, that's that's a massive way to feel, you know, that's like apocalyptic, isn't it? It's like the end of the world within your head. And he was able to get all those feelings across so well in his section, but he's still here, and again, that's the crucial part of it, the hope that ensues from everything is that he still made it through.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

When I listened to Sam, it brought up a point which very good friend of the pod, Dr. Susie Bennett, talked about, where she is interviewed loads of men who have gone through suicidality, and she talks about the poetic and heartbreakingly beautiful way they describe their own pain. And it's just one of the many reasons why I always push back against this idea that men don't talk or men won't talk, and it's actually society isn't listening to them because when they do talk, it's often just the way Sam described and talked about. Given what he said, and how he said he had a reluctance to vocalise what he was going through to people, you reflected on the film how it's or has done changed your own parenting style towards your own son. How has it done that?

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, so obviously my children are aware that I lost my brother to suicide. And my son now is 22, but throughout his life I've always been very open about trying to get your feelings out in whatever way that might be. And I think listening to Sam was quite impactful for me because it just gave me that reminder to just keep checking in and to keep that conversation going. And do you know what? As time moves on, like Joe is now the age I was when my brother took his own life. So there's all these milestones that happen that not trigger but highlight those things that make me think, oh god, I need to focus on that. And it makes me think about who I was at that point when I was 22.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

I want to talk about some of the events you've done now. So the first one you did was a radio play you did called Master Baker, which is very close to something very inappropriate, which I won't say on this podcast explicitly. What did you want to achieve with that?

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yeah, and that's the whole point, really. Um It was uh so I've got some writing buddies, and we do plays every now and then. So they wrote the play. They write constantly, they're always at it. And we have done a radio staged play previously, but with this one, they were really keen to raise the money for us, which was fantastic. So, yeah, they wrote it, and but it's a piss take of Master Chef and Bacoff. And there's four of us, and we all play about three different characters each. And it's a bit like the goons, you're probably too young to remember them, but so they did radio plays and they all took on different voices and became different characters, and it was brilliant, it was hysterical. We had hats to represent different characters as well, so we'd get into a tangle because you were talking to yourself effectively in different accents, and we had such a good turnout, it was amazing. And I got to do a little talk beforehand about obviously suicide sucks and what we do, and I had so many conversations, that's again what it's all about. Just drip feeding almost the word suicide into it because it wasn't like a big thing, like this is all for suicide. It was just, you know, a little logo, and then I did a tiny little speech about why we were doing it, but the conversations that were had during the interval and afterwards were just so powerful because again, it was giving people permission to use the language and to talk about the fact that they'd lost loved ones or that they themselves had had suicidal thoughts. It was lovely. And we even had there was a gentleman who was, I think he was 78, and he's a singer, and he performed before we started as well. He did a 20-minute slot, and the reason he did that was because he lost his son to suicide four years earlier, I think it was. So, again, the community feel within that event for that community was also really powerful.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

You've also hosted two comedy nights called Stand Up to Suicide. The first one was held in 2025, and the second was held on March 20th, 2026. Now, if we're to break the stigma around suicide, we need to be able to talk about it, obviously, openly, and maybe in the right context and tone, whisper it quietly, laugh about it. So we own it too. Was that the goal of those nights? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Absolutely. Humour is so healing, isn't it? And we had a, again, a really good turnout. And this year it was a bit bigger because we invited members from Papyrus and the Samaritans to come and have a little table as well, which felt really powerful. But yeah, the concept behind it is I get professional comedians and we're laughing, and tears are streaming through joy and humour. But then I get two guest speakers that have been on the podcast who stand up and own their story and deliver a five-minute speech about what they've been through. And then people have got tears from you know, sadness and also relating to what those people are saying on that stage, and it's so powerful. It's so powerful. I mean, the lady that spoke this time, Sammy, who was one of the first guests on my podcast, she's only young, and her story is massive. People were in tears, and there was a standing ovation because people got it, they could feel some of what she was talking about, and the fact that she was able to show vulnerability and share that story was just incredible. Really, really powerful evening, and the feedback from that was great. And I think we'll only be able to host one more at that venue because I think it will get too big. There won't be enough seats. But again, we chose that venue because the farmer that owns it lost his dad to suicide the year before, just before the stand-up to suicide night. And so we felt again the community trying to reach the farming community as well, which is a massive one. It just felt so right to host it there. And again, it was a bit more impactful because of that.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Before we reflect, I want to finish by talking about my favourite project of yours, which is called Voices for Hope, or Voices of Hope, I should say. And that came off the back of the podcast itself. So just tell me how it came about, the event at St. John's Church, and its impact on the podcast guests and the artists you got involved to.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Yeah. This was the Voices of Hope was a completely different thing originally. What I wanted to do was, I wanted to do the Voices of Hope tree trail. And I wanted to do it in open spaces around Barnsley because most of the nine voices that I'd picked from the podcast were from Yorkshire. And I wanted to have it to be like this out in nature experience with QR codes on trees where people would listen to the voice while standing under a tree. And the idea they would listen to this voice that had had dark days but are still here and it was all about hope. But unfortunately, my local council could not get on board because I mean they wouldn't even at that point entertain a conversation about it. I was a bit cross about that, you know, because I thought we're sharing positive, hopeful stories. And I even volunteered to set it up just temporarily on a day where me and my team could be there as support for anybody suffering. Anyway, I had to get my big girl's pants on and just think of another way to explore this voices of hope that I'd got in my head. So that's when it evolved. And it evolved to taking those nine audio clips from the voices and asking nine artists to come on board. And they all, again, I had a lot of uptake and they've all did it for free, professional artists as well. And what happened was each artist chose one of the voices, and they had to do two representations. They had to do a representation of the voice's dark days, so that could be very abstract, and then a representation of a tree of hope, which would reflect their positive outcomes and the fact that they got through, they're happy that they got through. And it was just awesome, and I can't wait to do it again. It's going to be an annual thing. So we had it at St. John's Church, Penniston, fabulous setting to start with. We also had Millhouse Green male voice choir there, who sang a 20-minute section with the most lovely songs. They sang He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother, which ruined me. It was so powerful. And what happened was people could come in and there would be nine stations that had the two artworks and then headphones, because I've got silent disco headphones. So they could pop the headphones on and listen to the audios whilst walking round and taking in the pictures. And then there was also a headshot from a friend of mine, Kat, who's a photographer, showing them in their present-day glory. It was wonderful to have that aspect of it as well, here, proud and positive, you know. And what happened on the night was the nine voices were all there, and then the nine artists were all there, and they'd not met ever before. Most, well, all of the voices except one, because I realised that this could be potentially quite difficult for the voices to see their artwork. They're vulnerable and they've been seen, they've been really seen through the artwork. So I did give the voices the opportunity to see the paintings beforehand, just in case they didn't want to, you know, break down. But only one lady took me up on that. So all of the voices, other than her, were seeing these paintings for the first time about their life and their story. And the artists were obviously there, and it was just so beautiful to see the artist and the voice have this massive hug and this massive connection and just insight to each other almost. It was amazing. And the whole room of people that were there that night, it was so connected, so connected. And because everybody's story resonated with somebody, even if it was a little bit, you could all understand what you were hearing and seeing. It was very powerful.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Did you take a moment for yourself when the event ended to kind of pat yourself on the back?

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah, gosh, it was a whirlwind because they were three Fridays, consecutive Fridays. Well, Thursday, one of them is a Thursday. So yes, it was quite full on. And yes, I I did take some time for myself. I try very much this year to have 24 hours where I have a digital detox and I spend time in nature. So that's my thing. That's how I ground myself and process any feelings that come up. It's hard.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Let's reflect now before we move on. First of all, what's been your proudest achievement running Suicide Sucks so far?

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Until I watched the documentary again the other day, I would have said Voices of Hope, but I'm gonna say the documentary because it was the what's that board? Springboard to everything else I've done. So I'm gonna say the documentary.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

And as a final question before we move on, what has running the organization so far taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Um It's taught me that I can do a lot. I can do a lot, but still keep grounded, actually. I think that's a big thing for me. I mean, but I'm quite a spiritual person and I've recently got into shamanic journeying as well, which also helps me to keep grounded. You know, I I used to think it was this really weird thing, but actually all it is is spending time in nature and meditating, you know, which is what I do anyway. So I've learned that I love events, I love doing events, and I can manage the conversations, the quite powerful, disturbing conversations of the podcast sometimes, but still keep grounded, really. I think that's the main thing that I've learned about this whole process within Suicide Suc, about myself, and about the fact that I'm a good listener and I want to hear people's stories. So that's an another thing that I've discovered about myself.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

We've talked about the amazing work you're doing and have done with Suicide Sucks. Now let's go deeper and talk about your own mental health journey, Mick. So take me back to early life, teenage years, and looking back, were there any early mental health experiences? If any, who's the Mick we meet here?

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah, so my early days, I think my first experience of what I would refer to as being aware of mental health was when I was about 13 and my mum and dad got divorced. And I think that had quite a profound impact on me, which you know, I think I probably went off the rails a bit as a teenager, probably quite angry about life. I didn't know this at the time, obviously, this is in reflection, but yeah, I think that was the first time I really kind of felt like life can be different to what I was expecting it to be. And I think that's your first kind of certainly for me, it was my first awareness that, oh, that's really affected me. That's difficult. And I think it made me vulnerable as well because I was a bit off the rails. I don't know if really off the rails is the right. I kind of became a bit like blase and I can't think of the other word, really.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Nihilistic?

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Maybe, yeah. Which, as I say, I think made me vulnerable. So I would find myself in positions that I really shouldn't be in and didn't want to be in. One in particular was at a party my dad had. My dad used to have parties all the time, and I got incredibly drunk, and you know, I was like 14 probably. I mean, absolutely, I was puking up and everything. But at that time, whilst puking up, I became aware of mental health again because I was in a room with my mates, and one of my dad's mates tried to uh be inappropriate with me. And that was again one of those moments where you're like, What?

SPEAKER_02 43:20

You're a child, you still feel like a child, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Yeah, and and people aren't behaving how you expect them to behave. That was, yeah, an eye-opener, and again led to me feeling a bit angry about life. After that, I didn't really experience much in terms of depression or stuff like that until my brother took his own life, really.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Well, let's talk about your brother now. So he took his own life on the twentieth of March nineteen ninety six, at just twenty seven years old. You're twenty two at the time. Before we talk about the grief and his death. Tell me what his name was, the man he was, and your relationship with him.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah, so he was called James, and I'm sure my other brother wouldn't like to hear this, but he was the brother I was closest to because he was a bit of a laugh, he was a bit of a joker, he seemed to be around more. Whereas my other brother, even though there's only a year between them, my other brother was obviously the oldest one of us. He was very much more, you know, strict and expected me to go to bed at the right time and things like that. Whereas James was a bit more of a a lad, you know, and he would have a joke. He was a joker, and he was a nightmare in terms of pranking me. I remember one night in particular, and I must have been about probably about 11 or 12, and I think it was Christmas, so we'd got guests staying, so we all had to chip into each other's rooms and share bedrooms and stuff. And he woke me up at two o'clock in the morning with this mask on that was like an ogre with a ripped eye and half a face hanging out at two o'clock in the morning. And I and obviously I woke up absolutely screaming because, you know, I thought I was being attacked by a bloody monster. So that was the kind of thing that he did. And this is all whilst having a coffin in his room, because for woodwork at school he built himself a coffin because he believed that he wouldn't live beyond the age of twenty one for some reason.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Now, you'd think that was a bit of a red flag, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Yeah. Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

No. We just thought it was quirky, you know?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

And then another time we used to have this massive attic that was actually bordered out. It was like a den, it had a bed in there, a telly in there, and all sorts, but only one quadrant was bordered out, and the other ones were like dark and spooky, and probably asbestos in the loft as well. But and he hid in there once and jumped out on me. And I mean, I almost killed him because we had this like funny old antique telephone that was like a lead weight, and I literally picked it up, and luckily I realised it was him, but almost cracked him across the head with it. So, yes, that was James. He was full of life, he had a motorbike, he loved the freedom of that and the adrenaline. He was a bit of an adrenaline junkie. And, you know, he had the love of his life, and I think that was probably what started his demise, really, when they separated. And he ended up moving out to New York, and you know, he was basically distancing himself from everyone, really. He had a friend out there, so he did go and stay with him for a while. But he always said when he went out there that he wasn't coming back, he was never coming back to England. And, you know, that was hard to hear. We kept in contact through letters, because obviously, you know, we didn't have mobile phones then, I don't think. No. So it was letters, which I've still got some of, you know, which is nice to have. Yeah, so he went out to America, he ended up getting married, he didn't invite us, we didn't know he was getting married. We did go out and visit, we went to see him. Me and my mum went out one new year, which was amazing, because he worked in a restaurant in Times Square, so we actually had New Year in Times Square. I know now, looking back, even at the age I was at 22, I might have been younger then actually, might have been 20, 21, I could sense that there was unhappiness. He didn't have a great relationship with his wife, and in fact, the last night I saw him, we went out for a meal with about 15 other people, and even though he was married, he was like chatting up this other girl. Oh I was I wasn't happy about it.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

It was obvious, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Oh, absolutely obvious. I mean, him and his wife weren't great, and they weren't really together, so to speak, but they were still married and living in the same house. He was just being a total ass, and I was really embarrassed by his behaviour and attitude. So that haunts me because that was literally bar about five minutes after that, when we went back to the apartment and he didn't. That was the last time I saw him. And yeah, you know, just hard.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Take me back to the day, if you can. So where were you when you found out the news that tragically had he had taken his own life?

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Yeah, so I was a primary school teacher at the time, and I remember the day very well, because that day in class we had a geography lesson, and I was actually talking about my brother who lived in New York. And I often wonder, time-wise, because of the time difference, that I could have been talking about him when he took his own life. Because, you know, I didn't talk about him with my class. It just seemed really weird coincidence that that day, at that time, and I haven't looked into it because I don't really want to, but I just find it really weird that that happened. So that was the day leading up to it, and then we had Parents' Evening after school that day, and I remember the head teacher coming up to me during Parents' Evening to say, Oh, you you know, are you almost finished? And I was like, Oh no, you know, I've got another couple. And I thought, that's weird. Why has he come to say that, you know? And afterwards I went to his office and he said, Oh, you know, you know, you finished now, great, you know, get yourself off. It was like really pushing me to leave. So he actually knew at that time that my brother had taken his own life because it had fed through because I lived with two other girls at the time who were teachers, and we were due to go out that night to celebrate the end of term and the end of parents' evening. And I was really excited about going out. But when I got to the house, they were like, Oh, we're not going out anymore. We're just gonna get some pizzas and get some wine and go back to the house. Well, I was like, This is really weird. Something was really weird, and I I didn't know why, until I got the phone call. And they'd already been spoken to to kind of prepare, I suppose. And it was my mum, and she said, Are you sitting down? And obviously, I kind of I knew instantly what she was gonna say, and it was yeah, devastating, absolutely devastating. And she told me that my fiancee was on his way. We were due to move to Osset near Wakefield, and he'd already moved there due to a job, so he was driving on his motorbike to come to be with me, but they'd been trying to time it right, but he hadn't got there yet. And I have never sobbed so much and so loudly and unearthly like I can't explain it, ever in my life. And I just couldn't stop crying the entire night. In fact, John, even at one point, like about three o'clock in the morning, was like, you know, do you think do you think it might be time to stop crying now? You know, because it's exhausting, obviously, to be crying, but that's all I could do. That was the only thing I could do to process it. And I I feel like I cried throughout the night. And then, you know, obviously the next day we travelled down to my mum's, which was in Silverstone in Northamptonshire, to be with the family, and yeah, a lot of the rest of it's quite a blur, really. Yeah. Difficult. And and also because it happened in America, we couldn't really get any answers. So it took a while, and for a long time I was like, well, you know, it's not true. I was in total denial. I had envisaged all these things that, you know, is being done over and it's been made to look like suicide, you know, by some drug gangsters or something, and you know, all of this kind of thing. And then information came out about certain things that were found within the action. You know, it's difficult to know what you can say, but I was questioning, well, how could he have done that then? How could he have done that if he did that? You know, because there were certain facts about it. And again, it was like it's somebody's got to have done that, you know, and I was in denial for a very long time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

I want to fast forward a few years now, because you said earlier you didn't have a lot of support at the time, and actually you would have refused support, to be honest, if you had known about those resources, and there probably wasn't, to be honest, in 1996. So five years later, you turn 27, the same age that he was when he died. At that moment, you have a breakdown, you go through some difficulties with your marriage, to the point where you temporarily separate, you sell the house you've been living in, you go travelling on your own for four months. Thankfully, there is a happy ending because you're still with your husband now. Who's the mick we meet at that moment in time?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

I'd lost myself, I don't know who I was, to be fair. I was somebody that was aware that life was precious. I was somebody that I was aware that people could do things, and I don't feel like this now, but at the time people can do things that hurt you, you know, because I was certainly at that time I did feel like it was selfish because he'd left me, and that to me was selfish, but I didn't have any understanding or education about people feeling like that, you know. So thankfully I obviously do now. But at the time, again, I was angry. I was angry about the world, and yeah, I just kind of I think lost it really. And I was going out drinking a lot, just didn't want the life that I had at that point. So yeah, I thought I'm making changes, you know, this isn't the life I wanted. I I wanted to live abroad, I wanted this, I wanted that. I was questioning everything, to be fair, and that's when me and my husband at the time, no, sorry, me and my partner decided that no, it was husband, sorry, I'm getting confused. Yeah, we we'd been married four years. Decided that, you know, I wanted to change everything. So yeah, we were getting divorced, we sold the house, and that was it. I was gonna have this new life where I didn't give a shit about anything, really, and didn't care about anyone. It was just all about being reckless, really, actually.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

The youthful nihilism came back?

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Absolutely, yeah. And at the time I loved it, you know, it was great. You know, I was out all night partying and didn't care, didn't really yeah. It was just pure recklessness. And then bought this round the world ticket, which started in Bangkok, which I think was the start of my whoa. This is grounding because I was on my own, I didn't know anyone, and literally landed in Bangkok, which, if you've been to Bangkok, it's quite a surreal place. It's so far removed from anything I'd experienced before. And to be on my own as well was like it was scary, you know, really scary. But yeah, spent time in Thailand, went to Malaysia, and actually stopped with family friends in Malaysia, so that was all a bit better. But during travelling, went to Australia, had friends in Australia. During my time away, I was starting to think not sure if I've made the right decision here. There is something to be said for stability and consistency and security, and yeah, I was slowly starting to come back to hmm. So it was quite interesting because John was with somebody else at that point, and he'd moved into a new house and all the rest of it. But before I went travelling, John and I had actually decided that we were going to get back together when I got back. But for him, he was coming at it from an angle of, are you just saying this because you're scared about going away and you want something to come back to? And there could have been an element of that. And there's so many other things that I went through because what I really wanted was I wanted John to be a knight in shining armor on a white horse and fight for me and save me. And that didn't happen. And I mean, obviously that's not going to happen because I told him in no uncertain words, this is it. You know, we had counselling and I was like, this is it, this isn't happening. We're over. So obviously, there was not going to be a knight in, you know, you wouldn't, would you? Because you told him not to be one. Exactly, exactly. Don't be a knight, fucking be a knight. Yeah. It was ridiculous, ridiculous. So yeah, we had decided that we were gonna give it another go when we got back. But what happened whilst I was in Australia was the lady that he was with sent me an email, and she basically said in this email, you're being selfish. He could be happy with me, we could be happy together, and yet you're saying that you want him. But if you really wanted him, why would you be off travelling? You'd be here fighting for him. And then you came back, and it was like, Oh my god, you're literally telling me what I was expecting him to do anyway. So, yeah, that's exactly it. That's what I did. I came back early. He actually came out for a week in Australia and we had a lovely week, and then my mum came out, and then when my mum went back, I went back with her, and there was only one seat left on the plane, and it was a first class seat. So I paid first class, which wow what a story! I know, and I felt like that solidified my I want you, this is it, we're back, and yeah, the rest is history.

SPEAKER_02 59:15

Wow, what a story, Mick. I wasn't expecting that.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:22

Just give myself a little time to ponder all of that. It's like a friends episode. I wanna talk now and fast forward again because in 2018, you slip two discs in your back and have a sciatica in your spine. You're bedbound for nine months, you can't be a mum, can't be a wife, can't be a colleague, anything. Who's the mick we meet at this moment in time? And how did you find out that the grief had played a part in it?

SPEAKER_00 59:52

Yeah. I feel like I was broken at that point. And again, it was all about identity. And I'm a big believer that in your life, you know, your identity does change, and you do lose yourself at certain milestones, I think. So I'd got to a point where I just felt, and I don't say just lightly, but I was just a mother and a wife, and I felt like I didn't have anything beyond that. Everything I did was about being a good mother and a good wife. And I'd lost the fun in life, really, if I'm honest. You know, I knew that when I was younger, I had hobbies. You know, I played tennis, I used to love writing, singing, acting, all sorts of things that I used to love doing. I'd got no hobbies, I had nothing. And that's when I found meditation. And absolutely can't say enough about meditation. But because I couldn't do anything, literally nothing, I couldn't drive, couldn't cook, couldn't take the kids to school, nothing. The only thing I could do was read. And I picked up a book that I'd had for years that I'd asked for for Christmas, and it was called Mindfulness for Women. And I thought, right, I'll read this then. And there was a question in it that said, Where do you see yourself in a year's time? And I just broke down and was sobbing because I couldn't see anything beyond being just a mother and a wife. And then the next question was, Where do you see yourself in five years' time? And again, I was like, I can't, I can't, other than what I am now. So I did a lot of soul searching around that time. But also what became apparent was obviously I was in pain and I needed help to do with the physical pain. Went to the doctors, absolutely had to beg and beg and beg over months, but they booked me in for an operation. So I was booked in for a microdiscatomy. And I'm one of these people that would try anything. So I tried acupuncture, I tried anything that anybody sent me. I tried those tens machines for the pain. I had physio, Reiki, I tried Reiki, which was amazing. And then my brother at the time was training to be a kinesiologist in London, which is it's a holistic approach and it takes on board five different areas, which I can never remember, but there's physiological, physical, mental, the acupuncture side of things as well. It looks at meridian and lymph, moving your lymph around your body where things may be trapped. It looks at intolerances and allergies. It's a very bizarre thing. And the way that they treat you is really weird. Like at first, I couldn't even lie down on the bed because I was in so much pain. So my brother would treat me through John. So John would lie on the bed and I would hold John's hand, and I would be getting the healing through John. By osmosis. Exactly. It's like magic. But during this, you do lots of visualizations, and the things that would come up represented your solar plexus, and obviously, I had back issues, and all of that is related to grief. And it was quite clear, and then you do find that a lot of people that have suffered a bereavement will have back pain because they're not processing in their mental life that they're suffering a grief. So it manifests itself in your body. I really believe this. And the reason I believe it is because of what happened with my treatment with my brother. So there was this one particular visualization where he got me to lie on the bed and he said I had to conjure up the biggest feeling that I was feeling right now, and it was anger. And he got me to write, really hold on to that anger. I want you to really intensely feel as much anger as you possibly can. Did that. And then he said, Right, you're now going to imagine that you are a knight in shining armour, you're covered from head to foot in metal armour, and we're going to bit by bit take that off. So he talked me through it. You know, it was quite lengthy and he had to imagine it. But we took every piece off and he said, throw it onto the ground. And bit by bit, threw it onto ground, he said, right, you've got a massive pile of armour, metal, on the floor now on the ground. Suspend your disbelief. You're going to light a match and you're going to burn that metal. So in my head, I'm doing this, burn the metal. He said, You can see it, it's melting, it's melting, it's going down to a little puddle till it's a little drop, and now it's soaked into the earth. And then he said, Right, I want you to bring back that anger. And I was like lying there. And I was lying there waiting, you know, and then gradually I was like, I just started laughing hysterically because I was like, I can't, I can't do it. I was laughing that much, I was crying. I was saying to my brother, you know, don't you? You know, I can't do it. And he was started laughing, and it was just such a weird, surreal moment. But I can honestly say that I just couldn't get that feeling back. And about two weeks after that, gradually I started to get better. And you know, this is from somebody who couldn't walk, and I cancelled the operation, and I have not had a problem since.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Do you think going deeper that was the moment you made peace with your brother's death?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

I do. Absolutely. Now, if somebody had asked me, oh, I bet you're really angry about, I'd have said, no, angry. I literally had no conscious at that point, other than when he did it, that I was angry. It was all subconscious. And from that moment, that was when I started to, you know, not long after that, to think, oh, I want to do something. I want to turn my pain into purpose. And, you know, maybe I'll make a documentary, shall I? You know, but it took two years or more to actually get around to it. But yeah, it was definitely, I mean, that's a long time though. It was like 25 years or whatever to actually fully process. And I truly believe that because I wasn't processing it consciously, it manifested itself in my body and it forced me to. You will process this, but you've got to.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

Let's reflect on your mental health, Jenny Mick. So, first of all, how do you remember your brother? Is Suicide Sucks his legacy or not?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

I think it is really, yeah. I think that it's a way for me to keep him in my mind and to use him as a kind of a tool, really, to show to get other people to see that there's another option. That's obviously what Suicide Socks is all about. It's about trying to share and connect stories so that we can with that lived experience get through things, really.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

And if he was listening to this podcast now, somewhere, what would you say to him and what would he say to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

Um, it's so hard that I think that I would probably say you're bugger, to be honest. You know, you're annoying. You're annoying because you've missed out on being an amazing uncle because he would have been a nightmare uncle, but he would have been brilliant. And I miss him. You know, even though there was an age difference of like five years or whatever, we were close and he brought a lot of joy.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:35

And what has this mental health journey taught you about yourself as well?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

That I'm resilient, I think, and that I know it's corny, but life is precious. We need to just be the best version of ourselves and be kind and positive and hopeful, and don't ever judge because I'm a big believer in that as well. You have no idea that person that beeps you in the car and a bit of road rage or something, you've you've got no idea what is happening in their life that is making them feel that way. So if in doubt, ask. If in doubt, ask. If somebody's being a certain way with you, check in.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

And as a final question, if you could go back and talk to the 22-year-old Mick who had just lost her brother to suicide, the Mick who was bedbound with those back and spine issues, or the Mick who was thinking about starting Suicide Sucks in around 2018, what would you say to her, knowing what you do now, if anything at all?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

I would say just give it a go to anything that comes your way. Just see. Just see. You know, if something doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But at least give it a go. And it's like that whole thing of do it scared, or whatever it is, face the fear and do it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:23

Our final topic of conversation, Mick, and it's one I try and have with all of my special guests if we have time. It is a general natter and quickfire chat about our mental health. So, firstly, how is your mental health out of 10?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Nine.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:38

Wow, excellent. What age were you when you became self-aware of your mental health for the first time and you realised that the feelings you were having weren't physical and they were actually in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:48

13 when my parents got divorced.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

And was it a Eureka moment or was it a gradual process?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:56

I think I've only learnt that now, you know, looking back. So I don't think I was aware at the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

Can you remember the first or the most important conversation you've had with someone about your mental health? So who was it with? What did you say? And how do you look back on it? Did it feel like the stereotypical weight had been lifted, or something easy, natural, and normal to do?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:20

I would have to say, I think the time when John and I were separating and we went to see an actual counsellor, and it was the first time I'd had that experience. And the lady actually told me that I was clinically depressed. And I was like, what? I didn't do anything about it. I went off the rails and went travelling. But I suppose that was that was part of it. I like to find things out for myself, and that's what I did. It was a journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

What things do you find in life that trigger your mental health? So it could be things people say to you: a sound, smell, taste, sensation, or have you not figured all of them out yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

Yeah, I don't know. Oh, that's hard. I don't know if I've Oh, I don't know. I don't know if I know specific triggers.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

What about positive triggers?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

Well, yeah, nature for me. I literally, my daughter gets so cross with me because I get my socks and shoes off at any given moment to ground. And my feet are hideous, seriously. I have got awful feet. So she calls them grippers. So I'm constantly putting photos on Facebook as well with my grippers because I don't care. And because I don't think people realise how important it is, and it's free. It's free. No, it can reduce your inflammation, it can help you sleep. There's so many benefits to it. It's electrically charged, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:59

You're literally touching grass in the most literal way there. Oh, mercy. Apart from nature, what other positive tools do you use to improve your mental health or help you feel better? Which ones have worked for you and which ones have you tried but haven't?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

Shamanic journeying is definitely something for me that I've got into. If I have a problem, I will go into this meditation with the intention of getting answers. And you get answers. It's brilliant. It's like being on a psychedelic drug. You have that much of a journey. So definitely that one. I mean into all sorts now. I've done sound baths. One of the last things I did, which we've got on, we're doing a day retreat coming up, was breathwork. Wow. That actually, I sobbed in that breathwork session like I sobbed when my brother took his own life when I found out. And that was incredible. But I also laughed and I also got angry, screamed and shouted. It was so healing. Oh, it's so good. I'm gonna do that once a month.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:14

You talked about that book, Mindfulness for Women, earlier in the pod. So, what has been the best book or books or mental health Bible, as I call them, that you've read for your mental health? Now they can be mental health-related, they don't have to be, they can be fiction, anything you want.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

Oh, I've got so many. The power of now.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

Eckart toll, yeah? It's come up a few times on the pod. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:36

Living in the present moment. I mean, it's a bit cheesy, but the message is brilliant. Yeah, Mindfulness for Women was a brilliant one. Dare to Rest by Karen Brodie is a brilliant audio. If you do it on the audiobook, she almost teaches you how to meditate and it builds it up, and you get to listen to your soul whispers, which sounds bizarre, but it's fantastic. I do that about once a year. I've done it three times now, and it just focuses in on what brings you joy and what you should be doing to make you happy in life.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:17

If there was a mantra in life that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

Summed up my mental health. I mean, you know, I've said before about just try it and also talk it out. Talk, talk, talk, talk. I'm such a talker, even though I'm thinking of going on a five-day silent retreat.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:43

I'm not gonna manage it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:44

Wow, that'll be a step out of your comfort zone. Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:50

I've got two questions left. The first one is what do you love about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:57

I can talk to anyone, I can have a conversation with anyone. I love conversations, and I've got two things. I'm a positive person, I'm positive and I love talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:09

And as a final question, you can answer it any way you want. What more do you think we have to do to ensure people from all backgrounds, all social classes, all walks of life feel comfortable and safe in opening up about their mental health issues or just their general mental health, if most importantly, they want to do it?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

Well, I think that is really about being there for each other, like I mentioned before. And we didn't talk about the Eight Minutes Mate campaign, but you can check it out on the website, and it's a tool to be there for each other, a code word, have you got eight minutes mate? Where it means I don't want to be here anymore. And if we all have that in our lives, it's a very simple tool that we could use to start the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

That is a beautiful way to end it, Mick. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been a wonderful conversation. What a conversation it's been. Coming on the Just Checking In podcast and talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:13

Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:19

Well, that's all we've got time for in this episode of the Just Checking In pod. A big thank you to Mick for being my special guest and for letting me check in with her. I'll put some links to where you can find out more about Suicide Sucks and follow them on social media in the show notes. As always, thank you to all the ventors who've tuned into this episode and checked in. I'll sign us off by saying if you've liked what you've heard, please do give it a share on social media by tagging us at ventshelpuk or one word. Tell your friends, family, or work colleagues about us. If you're feeling generous, please do write us a review and give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast and help us out with those algorithms. If you want to support us further, go to patreon.com slash ventshelpuk, or you can make a one-off donation to our PayPal. Both of those links are on our link tree. That's linktr.ee slash vent helpuk. We hope to check in with you again very soon. And remember, guys, it is always okay to vet.