JCIP #358 - Martyn James

In episode 358 of The Just Checking In Podcast we checked in with Martyn James. 

Martyn is a freelance journalist, broadcaster, presenter and consumer rights expert. 

He has over two decades of experience working for the UK’s leading newspapers and broadcasters and at time of recording has done over 14,000 TV and radio appearances, conducting 15-20 a week.

His weekly newspaper columns feature in The Times, the Mirror and his syndicated column appears in over 100 newspapers and magazines around the UK, from The Scotsman to the Eastern Daily Press. 

He has been a guest presenter on over 25 television programmes across all of the main channels in the UK, including BBC One's Rip Off Britain for over a decade and is a regular guest on some of the nation's most popular shows, from Morning Live to The One Show.

In this episode we discuss his journey into journalism, broadcasting, presenting and how he landed on his speciality as the consumer rights expert in the UK. 

We explore what opportunities that’s brought him, the issues he covers and amplifies for UK consumers through a mental health lens and how his personal life has also intersected with the issues he covers too. 

For Martyn’s mental health journey, we discuss his experience of suicidality when he was at school, being bullied for his sexuality as a gay man, and the context of coming out in the 1980s amidst high levels of homophobia.

We also talk about the death of his brother David from suicide in June 2020. He was just 38 years old at the time. 

We explore all of the emotions around this grief, including stigmatised ones like anger, the impact his suicide had on Martyn’s family, and how they’ve moved forward as a family in the last six years. 

As always, #itsokaytovent

You can find out more about Martyn's work here: https://martynjamesexpert.co.uk/

TRIGGER WARNING: this podcast contains a deep discussion of grief, loss and the impact that losing a loved one to suicide can have, which some listeners may find distressing or upsetting, so please listen with caution.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Trigger warning. This podcast contains a deep discussion about grief, loss, and the impact that losing a loved one to suicide can have, which some listeners may find distressing or upsetting. So please listen with caution. Hi Venters, welcome back to another episode of the Just Checking In Podcast. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. In each episode, I check in with a special guest with an atta and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. My special guest for this episode is Martin James. Martin is a freelance journalist, broadcaster, presenter, and consumer rights expert. He has over two decades of experience working for the UK's leading newspapers and broadcasters, and at time of recording, he has done over 14,000 TV and radio appearances, conducting 15 to 20 a week. Not that he's counting. His weekly newspaper columns feature in The Times, The Mirror, and his syndicated column appears in over 100 newspapers and magazines around the UK, from the Scotsman to the Eastern Daily Press. He has been a guest presenter on over 25 television programs across all of the main channels in the UK, including BBC One's Rip Off Britain for over a decade, and is a regular guest on some of the nation's most popular shows, from Morning Live to the One Show. I connected with Martin through our mutual close friend Christine O'Brien, who I work with in my current job, and Martin worked with her when he and Christine worked at the Financial Ombudsman Service many moons ago. Unlike the majority of his journalist peers now, which is a sad fact of life, Martin came from a working class background, growing up in the north of England, and he started out his career in the arts with aspirations to be a film director. He even worked as a nightclub dancer in those early days. In this episode, we discuss his journey into journalism, broadcasting, presenting, and how he landed on his specialty as the consumer rights expert in the UK. We explore what opportunities that's brought him, the issues he covers and amplifies for UK consumers through a mental health lens, and how his personal life has also intersected with the issues he covers too. For Martin's mental health journey, we discuss his experience of suicidality when he was at school, being bullied for his sexuality as a gay man, and the context of coming out in the 1980s amidst high levels of homophobia. We also talk about the death of his brother from suicide in June 2020, who was just 38 years old at the time. We explore all of the emotions around this grief, including stigmatized ones like anger, the impact his suicide had on Martin's family, and how they've moved forward, not on, as a family in the last six years since his brother's death. One final thing before we get into the podcast is at time of recording, I am off the back of an extremely amazing wedding and I screamed my voice off. So if my voice is a little bit scratchy during this podcast, it is because my voice has only just started to recover from it. So this is how my conversation with Martin James went. The first time I ever saw you, we didn't actually get to meet properly that night was uh through our amazing and the incredible mutual friend, Christine O'Brien. It was her birthday, and you had a disco bull helmet on. And from that moment, I knew I had to have you on the podcast, even before I found out you were an amazing Casino Rights legend. How are you? It's taken a long time of chasing, but it's in the diary. My voice is not great because I've just come off a massive session wedding weekender. And uh, I think you've had a pretty good weekend as well by the sounds of it on this Monday morning. I have.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

I've had a lovely weekend. Thank you, Freddie. It's a real pleasure to be on the show. And if you ever want to borrow said disco ball helmet, there aren't that many occasions to get to wear it really. So feel free, it fits all head sizes. You've got slightly big head like me, it's not a problem. You can constrict it down. But yeah, I've also had a very lovely weekend. My sister was down to stay, so um, I took her out and um we had some wonderful brother and sister times, which was very important. So now I'm desperately really around tidying up and heading north to film Morning Live later on this afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Amazing. You have had an incredible journey so far, Martin, and I think you are an inspiration for so many journalists out there from a working class background, and you've got lots of other strings to your bow. So without further ado, are you ready to start the show and talk all about that amazing journey?

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

We're gonna start your podcast, Martin, by talking about your journalism journey first. Take me back to the beginning, if you can. How did you fall in love with writing, storytelling, and everything in between that made you aspire to train as a journalist?

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Well, we could go really far back if you like, Freddie. I'm I'm not afraid. I'll go back into the deep, dark depths of my memory. I always loved working in the media in the creative industries, and I always wanted to write for a living as well. It's something that I got a great deal of pleasure out of. Slightly causing um a problem is the fact that I'm dyslexic. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 23, but I'm quite severely dyslexic, which um that helped me understand a little bit about why I was told I wasn't trying hard enough when I was younger. But that really scared me because it said to me that I wouldn't necessarily be able to do what I love doing. In other words, writing, you know, writing creatively, writing to deadlines, writing for newspapers. So for the longest time, I actually doubted myself as to whether I'd actually be able to do this. However, I also studied performing arts and media at Kelsa Breeze at Salford University with uh lovely colleagues like Benedict Wong and Maxine Peak, who was my best mate. Legend, Maxine Peak. Should be Dame Maxine Peak right now, shouldn't I? Well, I'm pushing away. So we both study drama as well. And so when I left university, I worked as a dancer for four years, a professional dancer, and that was very successful. Worked as an actor and then decided that actually I wanted to be more involved in the creative process. I wanted to work as a journalist, I wanted to work as a director behind the scenes. And so when I was 25, I moved to London to go on to a film school run by Mike Lee, the film director, or he was the big overseer of it for poor kids, no less. And while I was in London, I worked helping businesses sort out difficult complaints. Whilst on the weekends and on the evenings, I would work on short films as well in all kinds of capacities. And then we reached a point where basically my dreams were ending because I couldn't make the film work pay. You do need to be quite wealthy, as I'm sure we can discuss later, to work in the arts. And I just thought, oh, my career isn't really going anywhere, and I'm really, really struggling. And that's when I inadvertently became a journalist. I was working in PR, and with some degree of RNA I found myself kind of back in the industry that I'd always wanted to be in from the very beginning. Because working in PR at the Financial Ombudsman, where we met our mutual friend Christine. I was providing information about financial services, about how these different financial products work. And then one day, a journalist from Radio 4 phoned me up and said, You've just sent me this brief over on credit cards. Can you just come on the radio and say what you've written here? And I said, Yes. That's an easy brief. It was literally a brief brief. And then, unbelievably, here we are now 25 years on. I've done 14,000 television and radio interviews since that time, around about 15 to 20 a week at the current rate. I was able to leave my job in PR and move into journalism as a commentator at first, and now a columnist. I wrote weekly newspaper columns for The Mirror, my syndicated column that goes to all of the regional papers around the UK. I've written a weekly column for The Times and I feature in all of the national newspapers. For a boy who can't spell and a financial expert who can't add up, I think I'm a really good reminder to everybody that just because there might be some limitations in your abilities, it doesn't mean that you can't actually achieve what you really, really want to do if you're willing to put in the work.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

What an amazing whistle stop tour that is, Martin. Before we get into all of the issues that you cover, I just want to come back to the dyslexia if we can, because I've had the pleasure and the privilege of interviewing many people who've got dyslexia. I've had the pleasure and privilege of working with people, including in my current job, we've got it. And I remember finding out from uh a guy I work with and a really amazing conversation with him. And I remember discovering that he sees words as patterns, right? Or as shapes. Does that chime with you? Because I can imagine that can be a positive but also be a negative. I don't know, depending on your viewpoint on life, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, everyone has a kind of a slightly different variant, or you know, you might have some aspects, but not others. I classify as severe on the scale, according to the British Dyslexia Association, when I went along. I did some testing for a newspaper article, funnily enough. And yet at the same time, I also classify as a high achiever. And that's not because I'm special or marvellous in any way whatsoever. It's because I'm old. And back in the day, it wasn't a thing. So we were just made to work. So you had to work away through it. There were no concessions. So as a consequence of that, all dyslexic people learn little ways to kind of fill the gaps that they can't do automatically. Now that might be on a very basic level, if you're rubbish at maths, it might be using a percentage calculator on the internet. There are loads of websites that do this for you. I can put the same figures into a calculator four times and will get a different sum every single time. It really is that bad. And again, when it comes to the writing, I don't see words figuratively, but if I'm reading, they will all blur into one. I have to go back repeatedly to reread the same passengers. Sometimes the words vibrate and I can't get them to go in. I realize as well, which is quite embarrassing when you're working on the tell, that I do have a very broad vocabulary, but a lot of it has come from things that I've read. And it's only when I'm on the telly and I'm about to use one of those words, and I think, never said this word out loud. How do you say it? So that's like it till you make it. So you can often see me kind of self-editing when I'm on the telly thinking, simplify, simplify, what's the word you want to say? But here's a good story. My fabulous mother, who in many ways is a genius, she was an English teacher, still with us, very much with us, but stopped teaching many years ago. She had very strong beliefs around, you know, the kind of television I should be watching, but she didn't censor literature. So she would drop me off at the library when I was younger, when she was busy while she had to go and do some chores. And when you were kids, I don't know if it's still the same, you get three library tickets, and she would give me her eight adult library tickets. So I could get out all of these books, and the only thing she said to me, she's very religious, the only thing she said to me is don't go near the occult section. You can go anywhere else in the library, not the occult section. So, of course, as soon as she was gone, I read every last book in that occult section about four to seven times. I just didn't take them home. I kept pouring over them. What that did, the freedom to kind of choose these books, meant that I developed a love for reading that lots of people with dyslexia don't necessarily have. If I'd been forced to do it, I would have struggled massively. So I think a lot of the time with any kind of you know learning disorder to use the technical terms, yes, there are things that can hold you back, but there are other things that can actually really benefit you. Dyslexic people tend to be particularly creative. We tend to see things, we don't go from A to B, we go all around the houses on the way there.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Makes you difficult interviews, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

But the whole process can be really interesting. You know, lots of people with ADHD, for example, are exceptionally creative, or they find ways of complex problem solving that I couldn't even begin to get anywhere near. So I think we have to stop viewing these things as conditions that can hold us back. It's simply something we need to understand a little bit more and to find ways to use them to our advantage. There will always be problems, you know. I'll never be able to go on countdown, let's put it that way. But who cares? There's loads of people to go on countdown. Maybe I could just sit there and tell some jokes instead. So there are always alternatives for everything. You shouldn't be locked out of anything. Though I would say I'm also dyspraxic, which means I can't drive because I have no concept of left or right. So you win some, you lose some. My boyfriend has to drive me everywhere elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

I had this conversation with a previous guest, and I put the question to him that maybe we should be altering the way we speak about them in the sense of maybe disorder to difference as well when it comes to ADHD or dyslexia or even autism, you know, it's a difference. And I think autism on the severe end is probably still a disorder, but maybe on the the side of the spectrum where maybe I fall on, maybe it's a difference rather than a disorder. And maybe that takes away some of the stigma and shame about it as well when people getting diagnosed if they feel it would be beneficial for them in the first place. I want to come on to consumer rights now. So you get asked to do that first interview on radio for. When did you start to think, I'm actually quite good at this? And also maybe hone your voice, your broadcasting voice, and how you deliver some of those kind of short, sharp, top-line messages that are really key to making radio great and TV great.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Well, one of the things that really matters to me, and one of the reasons why I get invited back as a freelancer to appear on the news or different types of programs, is part of my job is to kind of be the voice for the audience as well. So if I'm watching a news story, I will have questions about that story. So I try to anticipate what the audience will be asking and to answer those questions, but also to talk about the fears that might arise as a consequence of that. I don't know what to date to the podcast here in um in any way, but at present, you know, we have the conflict in the Middle East. We've seen all kinds of things over the last few years, energy prices going through the roof, cost of living, food. Yeah, the pandemic and the impact that that had. As a society, we're always having to adapt to these things. And for the vast majority of people who aren't well off, the main concern is how does this affect me? Will I be able to fill my petrol tank? What can I do if the money runs out? Where do I go? So a lot of the time, my job is to explain a story in the news in simple terms that everybody can understand. But it's also about looking to the future, about what the future might hold. So people are forewarned you can't sugarcoat these things. But most importantly, it's about providing solutions. So all of my work with consumer rights is based on here's how you avoid getting into a difficult situation, or if you're in that difficult situation, here's how you get out of it. And on that basis, I do my level best to dumb things down as much as possible. And it's the one criticism I get from slightly snooty people in very posh parts of the UK about my mission to dumb down the world. But I don't care. And I often say to chief executives and business leaders and politicians as well, if you're talking to an audience through any kind of media, like a podcast, it's incredibly important to keep it. You can never make it too simple. And if somebody says that you are doing it down, then that's the biggest compliment you can get.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

There's a famous saying, Martin, I'm sure you're aware of, that trust takes decades to build and a moment to destroy, right? So especially in your space and the role that you've held and you have done for the last 20 years, how did you first build that trust? And what's been the key to maintaining it?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

I think building the trust is a is an interesting one because a lot of the time it is through repetition. You know, the audience gets used to seeing you, they get used to kind of looking into your advice. I think for me, again, one of the big compliments that I get from the TV work and the radio, but also from, you know, the newspaper columns, because people write to me as well, is when they've gone away and they've taken the advice and then they come back and tell you whether it worked or not. It's also really useful for me as well to know what businesses are doing. You know, are they making life more difficult for people? It's all well and good sometimes knowing how the rules work, but lots of organizations simply ignore them or make life difficult for people. So it's constantly about trying to help people just kind of navigate these tricky territories where they might not get the most friendly response while trying to sort out a problem. They might get someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about, or they might simply just not be listened to. And I think building that trust over time comes from providing information that is actually practically useful. You know, I have seen a number of examples where other people have gone on to work in similar roles, but their main focus is to be famous. And I always say, you know, if you want to be famous, become an actor, you know, find a skill. If you want to go and be a commentator, if you want to appear on television, if you want to write newspaper columns as an expert, then you need to be able to think much more broadly. You actually have to build the knowledge. The audience has to trust that you really do know what you're talking about. So if you do get a question from left field or something that's a little bit more complicated, you're able to answer it as well. And too often you do see people who've literally only practiced three lines and then they get asked something else and they can't respond. And you know, those people vanish off very quickly. So building trust is all about being adaptable, it's about the audience knowing that you've gone away and done your research at the end of the day, and also whether it works or not. And this is the constant thing because the rules are constantly changing, society's changing, businesses, to give you an example, are making it much more difficult to contact them. So, you know, how do you invoke your consumer rights if you can't speak to a business? So it's constantly about helping people get around these little things.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Financial well-being is such an important part of our mental health, right? And I think when you look at stats on men's mental health, a lot of the factors are around finances. So, for example, financial costs after a divorce or a relationship breakdown or unemployment, all these kind of external factors that end up impacting men's mental health. And I want to just talk about a couple of issues that you cover. So, first of all, we've spoken about cost of living already. That can be seen in the fact that my Friday fish and chips ritual has gone up from £9.80 to £13.50 in the last five years. The first other main thing I want to talk about first is utilities. And water, for example, is one of the main things affecting people. You know, my views on the water companies is so unprincipal, I would probably lose my job if I spoke about it publicly. You may have probably seen Channel 4's Dirty Business, which highlighted it in real stark and heartbreakingly moving portrayals, right, of reality, but in a sort of dramatized way. What needs to change here for consumers to get any level of power back, really?

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Oh, that's a really good question. So there are things that we can do as individuals, and then there are things that we have to do collectively. I think sometimes, particularly if we go onto social media, it's very easy to start viewing things as you versus the world, or to live in a tiny little echo chamber where people only have the same opinions as you, which is just as dangerous, if not more so. In reality, we are all united, you know. As a nation, we're much better than we think we are. You know, we're one of the most generous nations on earth when it comes to charitable giving, when it comes to all of these things. We are light years ahead of other countries. And there are things that we are passionate about, like the NHS, like uh, you know, supporting people who might need more help in society. There are so many acts of kindness that go on. When we work together, we can really kind of harness that as well. And the water situation is undoubtedly one of those scenarios. So let's look at the facts. It often helps to kind of look at what we can do and what we can't do. The big issue with water is the fact that we can't choose our water company. It was an industry that was privatized many years ago and yet it's not diversified. So we are stuck with Thames Water, Anglia Water, or whoever. And that means that there are disparities all around the UK in terms of what we pay, how we pay. There are major issues to do with sewage, sewage releasing, you know, damage to our lakes and rivers and to our seas, and the fact that shareholders for many years have received payouts while little has been done. Now, we can sit around and be angry about the fact that we live on islands where it rains all the time and nobody's built a reservoir since 1987. However, we are where we are at this moment in time. The groundswell of anger from programs like the whole series that Channel 4 did around this really unite us in a similar way that the issues around the post office scandal really brought that horrific exploitation of post office workers into the line. Lied. Sad it was a TV show that had to do that, by the way, but a separate podcast. Yeah. Exactly. But this sometimes brings things into the public arena. Politicians are now painfully aware that this is a vote loser. I've seen hustings where politicians in the South on the South Coast have been booed off by very angry middle class people because of the state of beaches. And it's important that they know that. So, for example, at the moment the water industry is being radically shaken up. The regulator off what is basically being abolished, and a new regulatory system is coming in. There will be a proper complaint service. We already have the Consumer Council for Water, which is a great organisation, but lots of us don't realise that we can go there. That's the first time I've ever heard of it, honestly. There you go. Amazing organisation. They've got some great stats on there. You can complain to your water company to the Consumer Council for Water. But we will now have a water ombudsman, depending on where you are in the UK. It's a couple of complexities. That will be announced this year. What we can do within our communities is we can write to our MPs, we can appoint representatives and get them onto consumer panels. There are lots of consumer panels on water at the moment and how to deal with these companies. So your voice is actually heard. If you are struggling financially, here's something else that lots of people don't know. If you're in receipt of any kind of benefits, if you're a carer, things along those lines, you are eligible for water discounts. It could be up to, I think it's the water safe initiative, but it's for up to 25% of the bill. Your water charges will be capped, and the water company will do what they can to keep those charges down as well. So there are things that you can do if you are struggling financially right now. But even in situations like this, where you think that you've got no choice, where there's nowhere to go, there is somewhere you can complain to for free. You can all collectively go to your MP and you can make it clear that this is a vote winning or losing issue. And we are where we are. Hopefully, I'll have some good news for you later in the year on water. But we will continue to fight on wherever we can with these issues where we really have no choice. Next on my list is council tax, by the way, but that's proving to be a little bit more complicated.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

We can speak about that off air. I want to talk about another utility, if we will, which is transport, right? And trains, or rail, I should say, which is another industry which many have been calling for renationalization in the last decade, higher prices, no relative improvement in quality, increasing cancellations, no resilience for poor weather, shock, frequent strikes. How do consumers deal with this too? When again, as you just said, many of them don't really have much control over what rail operator operates in their region, if they have to get to work or if they have to get to holidays, whatever occasion it may be.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

So again, this is one where we actually do have to vote with our feeds. It is possible there is a rail ombudsman. You can make a formal complaint to the company and you can go for free to the rail ombudsman. They would love their numbers to go up. Not nearly enough people are taking complaints further at the moment. And again, that's because I think people don't realise that they can do this. One of the things that we can do with transport is we can look at the gaps in the system that allow us to actually get some benefits. So I spend an awful lot of time on trains travelling around the UK, swearing good to my breath, quite a lot about um being stuck on platforms, running for trains, sweating profusely because everything's changed at the last minute. It's not very glamorous in my behind-the-scenes world. But there are things that you can do. There are seat combo tickets that you can buy through websites that basically split your ticket, and that will vastly reduce it. The other day I was on a London to Manchester train that the BBC had booked for me, and they booked it as a London to Rugby and then rugby to Manchester train, and it was two-thirds cheaper than it was to book direct, and it's exactly the same train that I was sat on. So there are things that you can do like that that will actually help you find the cheapest routes available. Huge numbers of us aren't actually claiming back money from the train operators when our trains are delayed and cancelled. The delay repay scheme isn't automatic in most cases, though you can sign up. You know, if you're a regular user to some train services, you can sign up and get at a discount, sorry, better refund automatically, then you still have to press a few buttons. But if your train is delayed more than 15 minutes, you are potentially entitled to some of the money that you've paid back. And once you go over an hour, you're potentially into the zone where you can get all of it back. So if we all claim back our money, then we can certainly send a message to the companies because they have to report those statistics as well. Now, we live in a world where 40%, I think it's 41% of our rail service is in effect renationalised at the moment. So there's, you know, less than two-thirds of it is still kind of in private hands. And those contracts are all up for renewal. When those contracts come up for renewal, you can again let your MPs know if the service is currently underperforming. I'm from Manchester originally, spent a lot of time on Northern trains. Ask any person in the Northwest about Northern as a train service, they will tell you in no uncertain terms. So even in situations like that, you exploit the cheapest options available to you. You always reclaim money, even if it's a faff, to the delay repay scheme, and make a complaint. You know, you can complain about accessibility, you can complain about dirty trains, not feeling safe if you feel vulnerable on a train. Absolutely should complain about these things. And that will send a message. Remember, every complaint that's registered is reportable for all of these industries.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Before we reflect, you mentioned caring responsibilities earlier, right, when it comes to water. And I want to talk about one final issue here, which is about disability rights. And your personal and your professional life have sort of intersected through this lens, right? So your niece has a disability, and your sister, who is her mum, is a full-time campaigner for her, and the carers who support disabled people too. How have you advocated in this space too?

SPEAKER_02 28:05

Well, this is one of those areas where me and my whole family were so passionate about this because my niece, Evie, who's 12 now, she has a life-limiting condition that is exceptionally rare, which means she requires 24-hour care. So my sister who came to see me uh this weekend has a rare two whole days off thanks to uh former husband and respite care. But it basically means that she's she's spending all of her time working for very, very little money indeed, because carers' allowances are exceptionally poor. But she's worked on a number of campaigns, and I've used my platform to highlight them as much as possible. But I also believe that actually it's people in those positions who should be talking about it. So I've got her onto the telly a few times. She'll be on a new Channel 4 show, which she can't tell you about. It's coming up very soon.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Uh I'm not gonna break the embargo and get myself in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

But one of the things that she's passionate about is supporting other carers. So carers get a really rum deal, they don't get much time to themselves. My sister set up an organization called Care for Carers where it might be through exercise, it might be through mindfulness, where groups of carers can meet up and they can support each other and actually feel that they have a voice. There are much wider issues as well that need to be dealt with. For example, you know, the accessible changing rooms for kids with disabilities. My sister's pointed out repeatedly how many carers have to change their kids on a toilet room floor, which is exceptionally undignified and it's not sanitary, it's not particularly helpful. We're now seeing National Trust properties and many other new stations, for example, are introducing proper changing facilities within the disabled toilets where people with disabilities can regain dignity. The lovely, lovely Nikki Fox, who I work with on Watchdog and The OneShow and all of these other things, Nikki is one of my favourite people on earth. She's absolutely hilarious. She's a wheelchair user, she's completely unapologetic about it. She's cherby cockney, and it can be very blunt as well about the way that people with disabilities are treated. It's worthwhile bearing in mind that around about a fifth of people in the UK, fifth of adults, have some form of mobility issue. And the way that a certain sector of society behaves towards them is absolutely unforgivable. So, what I would say to people is wherever you feel safe to do so, if you see someone giving someone in a wheelchair a hard time or being rude or dismissive about somebody who looks a little bit different, then do step in. Or even if it's just wandering over and making sure that that person's okay. And what do you do if you see someone in a wheelchair who might look a little bit different or who might be non-verbal? Here's the thing smile at them as you treat them like any other person would. Absolutely. So many people with disabilities tell me that they are simply looked through, like they don't exist. It's as if by looking it somehow brings it too close to home. And I understand that people are afraid of you know what happens if, you know, I were to be in that situation. Well, you're not in that situation. All you have to do is acknowledge that that other person exists. Oh, well, one last thing: move your boogies on a bus. Get the boogies out of the way and let the person with the wheelchair go into the wheelchair space. That would make such a difference.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Let's reflect on your journalism journey, mate. So, first of all, what's been your proudest achievement on it so far?

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Proudest achievement is such a tricky one because there have been lots of campaigns over the years that I've worked on where changes have been made towards society, but it wasn't just me. There are lots and lots of people who are raising their voices, my fellow investigative journalists and broadcasters who are putting in huge amounts of work, and members of the public who campaign tirelessly and bring these stories to our attention. So there are lots and lots of things that I'm proud to have been a part of. I think as a journalist, the one thing I'm most proud of is the feedback that I get from the people who watch the shows and the people who engage with it. I'm very interactive. So people do get in touch with me, people share their stories, they tell me what goes on. I take part in radio consumer clinics. I'm doing one today for Radio Manchester and then Radio Tees on Tuesday, Radio Scotland on Wednesday. The audience phones in and they challenge me with questions and then they phone back if it works, or if it doesn't work, they phone back and tell me. And for me, that's the big achievement. It's knowing that one person listened and went away and managed to turn things around. I know that sounds a little bit hokey because I have worked on some really, really big campaigns, but ultimately, if one person listens to what I say and takes my advice, and as a consequence of that, they win, then brilliant. And even if you don't win, knowing that you've stood up for yourself and that you've at least tried, that can make a real difference towards empowering people in their lives as well. Because if you get your bank to refund a charge that's unfair, for example, or if you get your insurance company to reverse a decision about a claim because you've pushed back and you've followed the rules and you've explained your viewpoint, then that might be the impetus for you to change other things in your life, you know, to leave that crappy flat that you've always hated and find somewhere better to live, to find a better job, to sort other things out. One little bit of empowerment can actually really help people dramatically change their lives. It just takes one little thing, one little win for people to make that difference. So, yeah, it's the individuals that I care about the most.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

And as a final question before we move on to our next topic, what has this journey also taught you about yourself so far as well?

SPEAKER_02 33:41

It's been really interesting because I think, you know, sometimes working in journalism, working in the media, it's quite a challenging environment. You know, people are very blunt. You know, you have to be tough, you have to be quite resilient and open to criticism about all kinds of things, you know, from the way you come across and the way that you look to, you know, the quality of your writing. And so I was always kind of prepared for that. What I was surprised to discover is that I haven't become cynical. I thought that over time it would have kind of grounded me down a little bit. A lot of people say, How do you stay so optimistic, given the fact that most of your job is quite depressing? Because it is, you know, I'm basically dealing with things that have gone wrong, news stories about things that are going horribly wrong, you know, our finances getting worse. But I think, you know, staying optimistic is the one quality that I was quite surprised to find that I still have. And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that I really do believe in people. I like people, but I like getting to know them, even if I disagree with you know what they're saying. I learn a lot. I'm constantly learning, and I'm constantly fascinated by what I get back from speaking to other people. And I try to put that into my work as well, and it's not got me yet. So here I am. And I'm 500 years old, and I'm still kind of, you know, I've still somehow managed to stay optimistic and positive, not just about what the future might hold for all of us, but about human nature itself. Yes, there is a certain group of society who are awful, and I think we can be honest about that, but it's not as big as you think. And even people who are angry and shouting at first, once they've calmed down and you understand a little bit more about where they're coming from, you realize that actually they have very big hearts as well. And I don't care if that means I'm ultimately a little bit naive and soppy. We need a little bit more of that in the world.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

We've talked about your incredible journalism journey so far, Martin. Let's go and dive a bit deeper and talk about your mental health journey. So I ask all my special guests on this topic this question first. Take me back to early life, teenage years, and looking back, were there any early mental health experiences? If any, who's the Martin we meet here?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Well, I've always struggled with mental health issues from a very, very young age. And again, you know, I was growing up in the late 70s and early 80s. It wasn't something that was ever really talked about, and it was something that was, you know, very much pushed to one side. You were told to tough things through. I didn't have particularly easy childhood in the sense that my parents are very lovely, but they're also uh very religious. And I soon realized that um I was gay once I was about 10-11, and of course, there's you go through a whole cycle of denial about not wanting it to not be true and all of these things. And when I got to high school, it turns out that this is where kids are really evil because I had a wonderful first half of the first term, and then when I got back on the second tip, it was like every one of those kids knew before I did, and they turned on me big time. So high school was just kind of unending misery, really. I was tall and I was a gymnast, which again was a bit fruo-fru for a Northwest school, not a massive fan of sports, but yeah, I was bigger and strong. So I didn't really get beaten up very much, as many kids from going through similar things went through. But the tormenting was relentless, and and it's I had a serious, serious impact on my mental health to the point that it's by the time I was 14, 15, it had deteriorated to the point where I was suicidal, where I was having huge mood swings, it's what would be recognised as bipolar disorder now, or a milder form of it, because I've not really been troubled with it too much in recent years. But again, you know, there was no way to articulate this. You were just told it was puberty and you were going through just your wacky hormones and you start to ride it out. And as a consequence, when I left school and went to what was Salford College then and then became Salford University, I found myself in a position where I'd actually achieved a place through talent and through my own ability. But my mental health was such that I was incapable of coping with praise, with the criticism that kind of went along with it. It should be pointed out as well. I think uh Maxine's also spoken about this, that the drama school that we went to was very much of the fame-style approach where you had to sing Jazz hands in the corridors, yeah. But also where they would brutally take you apart. Struggle sessions, but in drama. Oh, yeah, absolutely. They would try to break you down as part of that process. And it was also, you know, they try and ax people at the end of the first year as well, just to prove that that's how tough it is in Showbiz. And it is tough in Showbiz, it's just not that ruthless. So, into that environment, I found myself very much spiralling backwards and forwards, also kind of coming to terms with my sexuality. I left home when I was 16 because I didn't feel it was tenable to stay at home. And this is back in the day when if you were lucky, you could get a housing association flat when you were 16. Sadly, this isn't possible now. You get dumped into a hostel, which I wouldn't have survived, but it meant that I did get a one-bedroom flat in Ancoats in Manchester, which is very poshed now, but it was right dumped when I lived there. Um but I had some measure of independence. I was free, I was in charge of my own destiny to a certain degree, and that was very good in many ways, but it didn't solve the problem of my own mental health issues because I didn't get any treatment for it. There was nothing else, just you know, having to deal with this kind of monster that was always in the background, um, threatening to push me over the edge. It meant that I wasn't very good, I couldn't really form relationships, I wasn't really able to. I didn't feel that I belonged on the gay scene, I didn't feel that I belonged on the straight scene. I just enjoyed going out dancing, and so that's what I threw my energies into when I wasn't working, because that made me feel alive and it made me feel free, where I made an awful lot of the friends that I've retained to this very day through the club scene in Manchester from the Hacienda, because I'm that old, right away through the early 90s club scene. So I was working the whole time, but it was always a challenge, and I think looking back on it now, if I could say to younger people, you know, just seek as much help as you can get, because I feel that I lost my 20s in many ways through surviving and through getting through it. Same air. And I didn't feel that I was I was coming into my own until my mid-30s. And it feels like such a waste of time now. And you can never look back and regret these things. It is what it is, but it's only when you start to become more comfortable in yourself where you realize that you're not going to blossom into this imaginary person in your head. When you learn to look in the mirror and go, This is me. I'm not gonna kind of spiral off because of how I look, or then suddenly life gets better. But there's no magic wand that makes that happen. You need help and support to get to that point quicker. So that's what I wish I had had, and that's why I do a lot of work now in terms of uh mental health, so that people can actually not make the same mistakes that I did, or at least save some time and find the treatment or support that they need so that they can learn to, without that holding hands and singing come by, learning to love yourself a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Very much so, mate. And your uh your story has so many commonalities with mine, despite the fact that we have different sexualities, and I think it's such a powerful reflection on yourself that you are able to survive through all of that on your own in many respects, much the way that I did. I want to come back to school very briefly because I've had the privilege of sharing so many gay men's stories of their coming out, and I never underestimate or take for granted them either. One thing my friend James Conan said to me, he said when he was bullied in school and he kind of didn't really know he was gay, but people told him he was gay, he said, nobody should be able to tell you who you are before you do. Do you share any commonality with that?

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Yeah, absolutely. And this is really a common line. It's the same with lesbians as well. It's something that you know, you kind of think, how did you know this? I sometimes think the young children are equipped. You could argue they get it from the parents or something else, but actually, when you look at how kids interact, they are programmed to spot weaknesses. Sharks niffing blood, I call it. Blood in the water, they are absolutely in on it. And it's the same, you know, for the straight boys who don't fit into the same world, you know. Oh, you know, that was me. There you go. And you see, with girls in particular, but sometimes you think, why is that girl popular? You know, she's not particularly pretty, she's certainly not very nice, and yet she's the leader here, she's the instigator. How has this happened? And sometimes it's money and privilege and a sense of entitlement. And some people are just psychopaths.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

I was gonna say it's like a dark maturity because they're more developed than their peers, so they're able to manipulate people in different ways that adults can do, but children can't, and they've got that ability early doors. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Yeah, I think one of the things that we particularly if you have kids, you know, as you're growing up, this is one of the challenges, is as you grow older, you will encounter a range of psychopaths. Often they're running businesses or in showbiz. But there are lots and lots of people that you'll encounter, and you realize that these people are just emotionally unequipped, and they are the ones who are the instigators of all of these kind of things. And I'm not a great subscriber to all of the stuff that's that says to kids, you've got to stand up to these people, you've got to do that. Because a lot of these people are, you know, you're never gonna win against them because they don't care. They don't have the emotional depth or range to understand or recognise or fear. They are just horrible people. So the key is really just managing them and getting rid of them wherever possible. But it's a very, very difficult situation for kids. You need schools to identify these things and tackle them, you know, and deal with it, yeah. Yeah, it needs to be dealt with in assemblies. It is the nature of society, and it's part of our evolutionary background as well, that we will form cliques, that we will form our own societies within society. Societies and school is a microcosm of that. But the problem is nobody really understands why some people float to the top and some people are turned on and why that can shift over a period of time. But school should not be an endurance test that you have to get through to the other side. And I certainly there are still aspects of my school days that have had an impact on my mental health. I still very badly from anxiety. I still have panic attacks. And if I sense violence, my flight mode is very, very strong indeed. I can literally get like a rush of adrenaline. I get the same, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

That's what all bully kids have, mate. It's what it's like it's programmed into us. It's weird.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

I mean, the good thing is I'm never getting to fights ever. I can spot I can spot a situation kicking off. Gives you street smarts at least. That's the thing. You also because you develop what you just have to say to yourself is you know, it doesn't matter, you know, whether you're gay or straight. If you are one of those kids who is suffering at school, you've got to say what I said to myself then, you know, remember how this feels. Someday this will be over. These children who are now in charge, they will be the ones who never leave home, they'll be the ones who get fat and their lives will be over. And let me tell you, that's precisely what came to pass in my set of set of circumstances. Know that your victory is surviving, getting through that part, and then one day coming home ten years later and smiling to yourself as you walk past them, bushing trolleys around as to. And you know that you've won because you've survived. And actually, those skills that you get through this very horrible dark process are the ones that will help you in later life. Your emotional intelligence is a quality that all businesses want at the moment. I always hear this from chief executives. We need people who can make sensible decisions. We need people who understand how all different kinds of people work. You will get that if you've had a grim childhood. You will understand that. What we need to do is recognize these kids now as they leave school and give them the support to get them into these jobs, to get them away from the environments that are not helping them. And I'm a great believer. I really think the government should do a lot more to support these young adults who will be great contributors towards society if we can get them out of these terrible environments that they found themselves in.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

I think there's a really important point that I kind of went through in my mental health journey and recovery, which was moving from proving those people wrong to proving myself right, right? And I think when you do that, it almost takes away their power in a way. And I'm sure that was probably the same for you, right? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

And the weird thing is as well, you get no pleasure in it. The whole concept of revenge is a great motivation. Make two graves is the famous saying, yeah. I always say to people, look, fantasise about revenge as a way to motivate you to get out of this. But when it comes to the point of actually achieving it, you will not care in the slightest. I'll go back now to where I was from, and then so you know, some old-looking bald guy will come shuffling over to me in a bar and they'll go, Oh, you Marty James? And I'll go, Yeah. And they'll go, Oh, yeah, it's it's me without saying your names. And for a while it'll take me a while to, and then I'll think, Oh god, you're like one of the good-looking boys. Oh, you've done really well. And I'm you're in London. I'm like, Yes, I am in London, I'm on the telly and I've done very well here, and I don't look 500 years old. And but it's just a bit sad. And I just think, why did you stare? You're obviously not happy, you've not moved on with your life. It's just a shame that this is what your life has come to be. But I take no pleasure in that. There's nothing wrong with taking pleasure. If you want to, by all means, walk away and go, yes, or indeed go on a podcast and tell the story about it. But the facts of the matter is ultimately it's meaningless, and and how little these people will mean to you in later years. I mean, I would say as well that, you know, from a workplace example as well, I've I've also had some terrible, terrible bosses who really pushed me over the edge and I'd had a mental breakdown as a result of one of them that was it was that appalling, where I was actually getting HR treatment for anxiety and panic attacks and everything else from the very company which was causing said anxiety. Irony in that. So, and again, I stuck that out because I thought that this was the only way I was going to parlay myself into another career. And I was afraid to because again, this is a kind of like a working class thing as well. You worry about paying the rent. Am I going to get another job? If your mental health has been reduced to such a degree that you've lost faith in your own abilities, it's actually quite hard to get another job because you can't convince other people that you're the one who should be doing it. So it becomes a cycle and you get stuck in that. But what I generally say to people now is if you go to a company and it becomes apparent that you've got a horrible boss, leave as soon as you can do. If one comes in, or if you get a new chief executive and they're a bit of a wanker, again, that happens quite regularly, then take stock of what you've got, come up with an exit plan and leave at the first possible opportunity. Because there's no point, you know, you spend a third of your life in work. Don't do it somewhere where you're going to be unhappy. In this modern day and age, we move from one workplace to another. You know, most people move every three years at least. The job for life thing doesn't really exist anymore. You should not have to leave because someone in there is a bully, but nobody died and made you in charge of this particular union. You don't have to fight for everyone else. And on your way out, you can say in your exit interview, a new regime came in and I did not like it. And this person will, you know, be bad for the organization. And again, if you're right, it will go wrong. And that's precisely what happened with my terrible bosses. I left and the organizations fell apart. And again, I didn't feel any pleasure about that either because that was my legacy, and I'd worked very hard for those organizations. I was the public face of them in many ways. But ultimately, your mental health, your happiness is worth way more than that. And I've so many friends who've taken pay cuts when they've moved jobs, and yet they've found themselves with a job that treats them so much better and makes them feel so much happier that they've become much more productive. They found other ways to make money, they found other things in life that make them really, really happy. You also find as well, you know, if you move to a job that makes you feel happier, you actually save money because, you know, that I was terrible for medicating myself with alcohol and smoking loads of fags. You know, other people like pig out and some people go on mad shopping sprees. If you remove yourself from a situation that's bad for your mental health and into another one, you might get a pay cut. But ironically, you'll change your life in some ways. That means you actually save some money and you might actually get a bit healthier. You know, I don't smoke now. I've cut down on the drinking and I feel a lot better. And that's as a direct consequence of working for myself. But, you know, if you can just as easily go to another company and escape a terrible, terrible boss who brings all of those dark feelings back.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

You spoke about how you were suicidal for a lot of those periods of your life, mate, but you got through it. However, I want to talk about something similar, which was your brother who became suicidal, but sadly and tragically took his own life in June 2020 at just 38 years old. Now, before we talk about his death, just tell me what his name was, your relationship with him, and the man he was.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Sure. David is my younger brother. My sister is five years younger than me, and David was eight years younger than me, David Jarvis. And he was a very, very lovely man indeed. It's his birthday tomorrow, on the 14th of April. And again, you know, my sister and I talked about him quite a bit this weekend, and about our feelings about everything that has happened. With mental health issues, it's always been a little bit of a tricky thing in our family because we have a pattern of it. And one of the dangers of this when there are multiple people within your family over the years who suffered from mental health issues, is you can sometimes fall into the trap of thinking it's genetic and you're never gonna get out of it. But my mum struggled immensely, as did my aunt's, and I suffered very badly from mental health issues and was suicidal, and did sadly a number of attempts when I was younger. And then along comes my brother, and despite being exceptionally gifted and very good looking and very popular, had constant issues with his mental health, numerous suicide attempts until the final one. And I think, you know, for my poor sister, as the middle child, she felt surrounded by these men who were basically sucking up all of the air in the room as well. I think it's important that we talk about the people who are left behind and the people who are having to cope with this, because you know, I got lots of attention and until I left home. And then, you know, my brother hoovered up all of the rest of the attention as well. And, you know, sometimes we focus so much on the people who are struggling that we forget the other ones who are having to deal with the consequences as well. But David took his own life uh just at the start of the pandemic, just a few months in, and we all had to adapt very quickly to the reality of him not being there anymore. And it's tricky because if you've experienced mental health issues, then there is a part of you that's sympathetic to a certain degree, but there's also another part of you that's very angry. And I know that my sister and I still feel very angry about it. So a lot of David's friends they get very, very upset talking about it. There is a tendency to deify the person and you know, like they were perfect, and they're not perfect, and that can also make you very angry as well, you know, the fact that you've left us behind, that you could have tried harder. And these are the things that we're often told that we're not supposed to say out loud because we shouldn't ever blame somebody for doing it. Well, you can do. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If somebody attempts suicide and they don't, then that's a good thing. But you don't have to tiptoe around them either. You know, you take advice from the professionals, you speak to the person sensitively at first, but you can't have this massive, great big elephant in the room. You have to be thinking about it, you have to check in with them. And you also have to make it clear about the impact on you as an individual, as a family member. I don't want to make you feel guilty, but if you'd left me behind, this would have left me devastated. People need to understand that that is the case. Now, sometimes, depending on the mental health condition, that can exacerbate things if you pick the wrong moment. And it is important to be sensitive when dealing with people who are suicidal around what that might mean. But not talking about it in many ways is worse. And at least opening the door, even if no one walks through it, you've got to at least make it clear that you are willing to talk about it. That if somebody is feeling that way, that they can at least articulate it. Because one of the biggest regrets, certainly, that many of the people I speak to in this context have, is they could have said something, they should have said something, they should have recognized a sign. And I'm here to say that's not the case at all. There's always something that you could potentially have done, but for the vast majority of the time, you know, people who are feeling suicidal and or experiencing very different, difficult mental health crises are very good at hiding it. In fact, there's lots of evidence that suggests that when people are approaching a suicide attempt, they have a moment of colour.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

It improves, yeah, momentarily. And that's why people think it's a red herring. Or they don't think it's a red herring, sorry, but it is one because that person's actually reached a moment of clarity, and because they've reached a moment of clarity, their mental health actually improves momentarily before they make the attempt, and then sadly complete it. So you're absolutely right there.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Exactly. I think it's one of those things where every situation is different for other people. And I and I would say, you know, often we say to people who are left behind after an experience like this, well, maybe not now, but in a few months, in a year, in a few years, you'll look back on it and you'll be at peace with this and all this. And that's not necessarily the case. You know, you might never be at peace with it. You might have extremely mixed and ambivalent and contradictory feelings forever about this. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's possible to miss somebody desperately and love them unconditionally and still be really cross with them. I mean, that's basically what most relationships are like. It's possible to kind of we don't have black and white ways of viewing these things. So there's nothing wrong with doing that at all. But it is very difficult if you have experienced mental health issues to see somebody else going through that and then to lose them because you do feel that you've dropped the ball a little bit. David had a seven-year period, we were just talking about this on the weekend, actually, where he seemed to have cracked it. After the last suicide attempt, we all put the time in together. Me and my sister and brother had so many times we went on holidays, they'd come down and stay with me in London, we had some great, wonderful times together. And even though we'd have an occasional wobble, he seemed to really be turning his life around. So for things to suddenly go downhill so quickly was very hard for me and my family, and certainly for his friends to understand. And I think, you know, for his peer group, it was particularly challenging because they saw this as a reflection on their own mental stability, and they thought, well, if he can fall off the wagon, so to speak, so quickly like this, then what about me? And a lot of them were experiencing their own mental health issues as well. So one of the positives is me and my family have been able to go and spend time with David's friends and provide some comfort to them. And, you know, I went to the wedding of one of them and represented David. We've met up for birthdays, I've met them for drinks, you know, and it's an ongoing process where we've become friends through this awful scenario, and yet it's ongoing support for these people as they come to terms with their own mental health and where they are in life and how they feel about themselves. And that's a good thing. If there's a positive that's come out of this, it's this community has formed where it's all about support and helping them, and indeed the next generation, because they're at the point where they're having kids as well. So it's been a very difficult few years, but they always are, and there is much hope and optimism to be had for the people that we have left.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

I think it's really important that you made that point about some people never being able to find peace, Martin, because it's a question I always ask on the podcast, and sometimes there is no black and white answer to it. And there's another grief myth, I think, which I've tried to break down in this podcast, and it's through my own learning as well, and that's the myth that time heals. Whereas actually I believe that time changes your perception of grief, it doesn't necessarily heal. And I've had loads of conversations about suicide grief, and there's definitely a difference between someone who loses someone from a very, very sudden or shock suicide versus someone who loses someone who's got quite a big history of mental illness, who maybe has made previous attempts before. It doesn't make it easier, but there is a difference in that grief. Was that the same for you?

SPEAKER_02 59:48

Do you know that's such a good question, Freddie? And I think that I have someone very close to me who had exactly that scenario. So we both share a sibling, but mine, it was a long, protracted series of events with David, to the point where our mother said, I've said goodbye to him in my head. So every day that we have together is a wonderful day, and that devastated me. I was like, Oh, you can't do that. But it was the only way that she could get through it, and she found it that gave her and my father the resilience that they needed to go on saying goodbye and then being grateful that he was still there. And I know that seems very dark, but it was a great thing for them. It was the only thing that helped them get through. But with the other person I'm talking about, and indeed many other people in my life who've lost friends or family members to unexpected suicide, it's very challenging because there are so many questions that cannot be answered. I think one of the most frustrating things about death is the fact that it is a full stop on the end of the sentence. You can pour over notes scribbled down, you can try to think about what the meanings are, you can go through a whole series of text messages going back 20 years now, which is very unhealthy, looking for reasons.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

Um, and often there aren't any reasons that make sense. It's an ellipses rather than a full stop, isn't it, when it comes to that shock suicide rather than a history of one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Absolutely. You're basically being handed a void, and there is nothing, you know, a coroner's inquest isn't going to give you the answers that you're looking for that will only tell you the technicalities if they are available. And therein lies the problem. Um it's finding a way to come to terms with something that's so inconceivable that it will cut a hole in you itself if you allow it to do so. And I've rather tragically, I have seen other circumstances where people have become so trapped by this situation that they have.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

They bring people down with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

It's really hard, yeah. Absolutely. I think in situations like this, so uh my friend's mum runs a branch of a charity called SOB, survivors of Yes, very well aware of them, yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful, wonderful organization. And ironically, it seems like my family have been chatting with her for many years as well, so we had this weird link. And there are organizations like this that can't give you the answers that you're looking for, but they can help you make sense of what's left behind. And I think that's the most important thing. And again, it's different, it really is different for everybody. Some people, it helps just to shut it all out and box it away, and at some point I'll unpack it, and maybe you never do. I would always argue that it is worthwhile coming to terms with how you feel through talking to people. But again, I think unlike actual mental health issues where it's beneficial to speak to a trained professional who can help you make sense of what's going on, who can diagnose conditions if need be. If you are a survivor of a bereavement, of any kind of bereavement, really, it doesn't have to be suicide. If it's damage to you, a person not being there anymore or dying suddenly has had an impact on you, then you need to talk to other people. And you don't have to pay money to do it. I think that's one of the big blockers for people from seeking help. We're constantly told, because it's true, that it's very difficult to find financial health and support. And yes, massively oversubscribed at the moment. It is very, very difficult to get therapy on the NHS or cognitive behavior therapy or things along those lines. But there are countless free support groups out there. There are people who will provide that 24-hour support. There are always people you can speak to. You can do CBT if that works for you, through all kinds of, you know, free online videos. Don't do it off TikTok, by the way. That uh please be wary of untrained people on TikTok. Therapy sector is the Wild West. But you shouldn't feel that because you can't afford it or because there's a big waiting list, you can't have it. That help is there available. My sister found cold water therapy was helpful for her, breathing therapy released a lot of kind of the attentions that were in there. There are things that you can do right now, but the key thing is to speak up and seek help. How do you remember him? I just remember the good times really. I try to remember the fun. There are moments where I really do feel a little lost. We had some very honest conversations, which annoyed me because I thought, you know, we could try a bit harder. But in the main, it was, you know, the great fun that we'd have. He was a brilliant dancer. He was uh great at personality. The girls and the boys actually out there, they loved him. I had to beat them off with sticks whenever he came down to London. And he really brought a lot of joy into people's lives. And I don't want the fact that ultimately he chose to end his own life to be that thing that he's remembered. The thing defines him, yeah, and it's not. Yeah, it's the legacy of you know who he was and the impact that he made on people's lives. When the funeral happened, it was during the pandemic and people weren't allowed to come out, so we only had 20 minutes. We only had eight people who were allowed at the funeral place, and yet we opened the doors of the crematorium and there were 150 people there who'd come anyway, spaced out, obviously, following the rules. But as we were driving in the funeral cortage or whatever it is, as we got onto the estate, all of the people from the estates where I grew up were there and they clapped. And I was thinking, is this weird? It was lovely because they all came out to show their support. They knew what had happened, and as we approached the church, one went, Oh, what's going on there? They were lining the road, and I think that for us that was incredibly moving. It was a demonstration of the fact that a life has value, even if it's stopped for whatever reason, you know, if you get hit by a bus or you choose to end your own life or you have a total illness, you know, life isn't there, and there's no point trying to work out the rights or wrongs of it all. What does matter is. Is the impact that that person left. And if we want to live good lives, if you want to really kind of do the right thing, then that legacy is the most important thing. Will you have made a difference in people's lives when your life is over for whatever reason? And if you have done, then that is technically the meaning of life. Sorry, that got a bit deep there, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

So what the podcast is all about, Martin. One more final deep question before we reflect. If David was listening to this conversation, mate, somewhere, what would you say to him and what would you think he would say to you?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Um, if he was listening to this now, after he died, then I'd just want to understand a little bit more about what was going on in those last few moments that led up to this. If he was still alive, I'd be encouraging him to talk to his many friends, but I wouldn't be laying it on too sick. I'd be saying, I didn't realise how many friends he had. Well, tell us about this one, tell us about this one, and I'd get him to talk to me about the friends that he had as a way of reminding him of the friends that he had. But I don't believe in recriminations, I don't believe in the pointy fingers. I think what's done is done ultimately. Whilst I would want to know a little bit more, I think there's a limit to what you can know, or what is worthwhile knowing, how much would your life be better for knowing. Do you want to really know how sad somebody was in their last moments or not? Or are they at peace now? Was it the right decision for them? And it is possible, you know, we were able to speak to people who died. They may turn around and say to us, this is ultimately the decision that was right for them. And we may not feel happy with that as an answer, but that might be the answer. And I think these are some of the things that we have to accept. I can only work on the basis that this is the point that David's life ended. And we who are left behind must take stock of that and find the value in the impact of all the things that he did while he was here.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

Similar question is the first topic now, as we reflect. What has this mental health journey taught you about yourself? It's taught me that I'm stronger than I ever thought I was. You'd have no idea how common an answer that is on this podcast, Martin.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Well, that's the thing. And it's it's worth repeating because sometimes, you know, well, let's go full circle. One of the things that I do in my job is I'm often reiterating the same fact. This is how you get your money back here. This is what happens if you've been charged for something and it's not fair. And you think, oh, but are we just saying this over and over again? But you can never reiterate things that matter enough. I didn't realise I was as tough as this. What I didn't realise looking back on it was how tough I was at the height of the mental health issues, because I did manage to restrain myself in numerous occasions, I managed to pay the rent, I managed to somehow stay functioning and keep my head above water. And keep dancing. Yeah, exactly. And I helped people along the way. So even though, in a coulda, woulda, shoulda way, because I don't believe in kind of, you know, I let's change things, but even though I did lose out on my 20s, I did it through a level of strength that I really didn't see at the time. And that strength has helped me immensely in my career, in my relationships, and in the fact that I've got a really great, widespread group of friends, a really eclectic mix of people in my life who I absolutely adore. In fact, the main thing I feel guilty about is not being able to see all of them all of the time. That's top of my guilt list these days. That's what I stress about. So, yes, ultimately, we are stronger beings than we think we are. And even if you don't think that that's the case, if you're managing to get out of bed every day and do one thing, and if that one thing is getting out of your pajamas or making the bed, then you have achieved. You've achieved something on that day, and that's what you hold on to. If you cook yourself a meal, brilliant. Tick that box. It doesn't matter if you spend the entire rest of the day on the sofa because the next day maybe you'll do something else. But doing one little thing that demonstrates that you have not become overwhelmed by this, these are the first little tentative steps that you need towards finding a way out of this nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

And as a final question before we move on to our quick fire mental health chat, if you could go back and talk to the Martin who had just come out about his sexuality, the Martin who had just moved down to London who was being a nightclub dancer to make ends meet, the Martin who was taking his first steps into broadcasting and getting that first call off the radio for producer, what would you say to him, knowing what you do now, if anything at all?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

I would say don't stay in situations that are unhealthy for you. Walk. Have faith in your own abilities. And if someone or something is making you unhappy and you've thought about it and it really is them, then leave and start over again. You can do this, it's worthwhile taking a risk. Staying in a situation for financial reasons or for fear of losing your own security is the wrong reason to stay, and it will make you feel worse.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Our final topic on this wonderful conversation, Martin, and it's one I try and have with all of my special guests if we have time. It is a general natta and quickfire chat about our mental health. So, firstly, how is your mental health out of 10? These days, I'd say a healthy eight. I'm not drinking so much anymore. Anxiety, got to watch out for that. That's the main thing. What age were you when you became self-aware of your mental health for the first time and you realised that the feelings you were having weren't physical and they were actually in your mind? 12. Pretty precise there. And was it a eureka moment or a gradual process?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:01

It was a panic moment and one that got progressively worse at the kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, as each year it got worse and there didn't seem to be a way out of it. It peaked at 21.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

So that sounds like both, but in a negative way, sadly. Can you remember the first or the most important conversation you ever had with someone about your mental health? So who is it with? What did you say? And how do you look back on it? Did it feel like the stereotypical big moment and weight have been lifted? Or on the other hand, something quite easy, natural, and normal to do?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:36

It was a friend who said, I don't think you realize how much you're struggling and that you think you're hiding it, but you're not. We can see that you're becoming manic and we need you to get some help. And of course, I resented that. But I did get help eventually. Not straight away, but eventually.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

What things in life do you find, if any, that trigger your mental health? So it could be things people say to you, a sound, smell, taste, sensation, or have you not figured all of them out yet? It varies.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

These days it's still security. It's not having money coming in, it's not being able to pay the mortgage or the rent or things like that, job inconsistencies, things like that. Not relying on medication or alcohol. So going cold turkey, if you like, to get through the day is tricky because without both of those or either of those things, all of the anxieties and all of the fears come back. So it's managing those without reliance on any form of stimulants or medical treatments.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Conversely, what positive tools do you use to improve your mental health or help you feel better? Which ones have worked for you, and maybe which ones that you've tried but haven't worked?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:51

I still love dancing, even though I'm not nearly as good as it used to be. I do love a little dance around the living room. What's not to love about that? That always cheers me up. Reading, I to switch the buzz off in my brain. I have very long hot baths. So I've forgotten my northernness then. The hot bath will get me slapped in the north. So I have a bath for an hour as hot as I can possibly stand it, and I read a book in the bath. All of my books have got little like wet moths on the side. Sometimes I've dropped a few as well. And I find that helps me shut down all of the clutter in my mind. So as soon as I come out of the bath and I go to chill out. Cleansed of sorts.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Speaking of books, what is the best book or audiobook or mental health Bible, as I call it, that you've read for your mental health? Now it can be mental health or self-help related. It doesn't have to be. It can be fiction. And if you can't think of one, play, TV show, film, any piece of popular culture.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:47

Books are straightforward for me because I don't really do self-help books. And the reason for that is I either find them annoying or I find that they just make me think about the thing that I'm not supposed to be thinking about. But that's very much me. It's because I'm difficult and contrary. For many people, that's not the case. I revisit children's books that I loved when I was younger. My two favourites are The Never Ending Story by Michael End. If you've only seen the film, it is basically a journey of a lonely, sad boy and how he fucks things up when he actually gets to meet his heroes. And it's very, very beautiful and very moving. And I'm also reading A Wizard of Earthsea, the again books by Ursula Le Guin, the magnificent science fiction author. These are books that both feature flawed young characters. One who is arrogant and petulant and unleashes all kinds of uh problems on him. It's a big influence on Harry Potter. And my favourite one in the series features a young girl who's raised to a high priestess level, who is very much lost and alone. And through these books, I saw imperfect people finding solutions after very much making mistakes. I'm all about flawed characters. Because they have character arcs.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

Absolutely, yeah. If there was a mantra in life that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why? Ooh, that's a really, really good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

Um I often it's probably not the best one to say out loud. I mean, I like to give myself a good metaphorical slap. So my most common words are shut up, Martin. And if I find that my mind is going off on a spiral, I'll just say, Oh, shut up, Martin. Because it puts a pull stop on the end of the sentence and I go, right, okay. Okay, it's time to stop this. So I don't have a mantra to kind of go like positive affirmations or things along those lines. Just uh I've caught you, stop it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:52

And that helps me. It's like a weird inverse grounding technique. The problem is though, I've been known to do this in public.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

So I'm going into TV studios or something, and I'm worrying about the and I'll be in the foyer and I'll just go, Oh, shut up, Martin. And then the person who's come, the runner who's come to collect me will go, uh-oh. He's talking to himself.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

Oh my god. What do you love about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:25

What do I love about myself? I think I'm a decent person. Well, no, I don't think. I know that I'm a decent person and that I'm kind and that I care about people and that that's why the people around me love me. I know that I'm a at heart, I'm a decent person who does the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:42

And as a final question, you can answer it any way you want. What more do you think we have to do to ensure men from all social classes, all sexualities, all backgrounds, all walks of life feel comfortable and safe in opening up about their mental health issues or just their general mental health, if most importantly, they want to do it?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:04

I think always leaving the door open is the way to do it with these things. I've so many straight male friends, so many, and often they only talk to me at two in the morning when beers have been had, and that's fine, you know. If beer opens the door, it's a great way. You know, I've had many like a teary man on my shoulder. Same mate. And if that's the way to do it, but sometimes going out walking, going out into the countryside, going out and doing something, some form of activity. The walk and talk is the best method. Yeah. Walkie talk, yeah. Even driving somewhere in a car. And if you are worried about a man, or indeed anyone in your life who you are worried about, you know, that the fact they're not talking, then start talking yourself. Talk a little bit about what you've been going through. If you've been feeling insecure, it's a great way of doing it. Build the trust. Exactly. And also, you're basically asking the other party to give you advice to help you, and in the process, that opens the door for them to say, I've also not been feeling great lately. So if you're worried that someone isn't speaking, don't try and corner them in a room. Just say, Do you know what? I've been feeling a little bit wobbly lately. I don't know what's wrong with me. I've been a little bit up and down. What do you think it is? Is it the weather? Is it just because you know the of what's going on in the news? But this is how I'm feeling, and it worries me because in the past, this, and that gives the other person a conduit to come in and to maybe talk about their own things. You don't have to lie, but we all have good days and bad days. So use that as a way to open the door for somebody who might be desperate to talk but doesn't know how to start the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

Bill Bridges, not walls, is one of my favourite mantras on the podcast. It's almost like I've done over 400 of these, Martin, isn't it? Martin, it has been an absolute pleasure and a privilege. Thank you so much for coming on the Just Check In podcast and talking to me, brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:04

Thank you, Freddie. I really, really appreciate you giving me this opportunity. And if anyone is struggling, just speak out.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

Well, that's all we've got time for in this episode of the Just Checking In pod. A big thank you to Martin for being my special guest and for letting me check in with him. I'll put some links where you can find out more about Martin's journey and his work in the show notes. And also, you can pretty much catch him on most television channels and radio outlets if you want to in the coming weeks and months as well. As always, thank you to all the ventors who've tuned into this episode. Remember, if you've liked what you've heard, give it a share on social media by tagging us at VentHelpUK. Tell your friends, family, or work colleagues about us. If you're feeling generous, please do write us a review and give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to support us further, go to patreon.com slash venthelpuk or you can make a one-off donation to our PayPal. All of those links are on our link tree. That's linktr.ee slash vent helpuk. We hope to check in with you again very soon. And remember, guys, it is always okay to venture.