JCIP #352 - Tom Festa

In episode 352 of The Just Checking In Podcast we checked in with Tom Festa. 

We came across Tom through friend of the pod Mark Ferris as Tom was fundraising for Mark’s stepson Callum and his treatment for brain cancer through his ‘Race Around The World’ journey.

Initially starting it as a personal journey for himself, Tom came across Callum’s GoFundMe page. 

He didn’t know Callum or his family but after finding out about Callum’s love for education, as a teacher himself, he chose Callum's story to fundraise for.

In May 2025, he took his mum out to Canada with him and he ran his first half-marathon.

From there, he travelled to Brazil and ran his first marathon on August 31st 2025.

Then, in October 2025, he travelled to China and did a 7-day trek up and down the Great Wall, walking over 65,000 kilometres. 

And finally, he flew to Perth in Australia, where he completed an ‘ironman’ in December 2025 and visited some family members. His friends also flew out and joined him out there too.

Tragically, in-between the time we organised this podcast and recorded it, on 26th January 2026, Callum died from the cancer he had been getting treatment for, with his funeral held on Friday 13th February 2026. 

In this episode we discuss the origins of Tom’s fitness journey, which came following the end of a 10-year-relationship. We discuss the aftermath of it, the crisis it provoked and how he used the campaign to give him a new purpose of raising money for Callum for the time he did.

For Tom’s mental health journey, we discuss the grief of losing his grandfather on his mum’s side, which brought on a form of cleaning OCD and health OCD which became permanent in him. 

We unpack the traits this presented in his mental health back then and why, why it carried on beyond the grief and into adulthood and whether it presented in him prior to that point under the surface.

We then discuss how he's managed the OCD, navigated a healthy life alongside it, and how running has quietened these traits for the period of time he’s been doing it for.

As always, #itsokaytovent

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi Venters, welcome back to another episode of the Just Checking In Podcast. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. And each episode I check in with a special guest. We have a natta and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. My special guest for this episode is Tom Fester. I came across Tom through friend of the pod Mark Ferris, as Tom was fundraising for Mark's stepson Callum and his treatment for brain cancer through his Race Around the World journey. Initially starting it as a personal journey for himself, Tom came across Callum's GoFundMe page. He didn't know Callum or the family, but as a teacher himself and finding out Callum's love for education, he knew it was what he wanted to fundraise for, instead of other massive, faceless charities where he wouldn't 100% know where the money would be going. In May 2025, he took his mum out to Canada with him and he ran his first half marathon there. From there he travelled to Brazil and ran his first marathon on August 31, 2025, in a place called Florianopolis, a city just south of Rio de Janeiro. Then in October 2025, he travelled to China and did a seven-day trek up and down the Great Wall, walking over 65,000 kilometres. And finally, he flew to Australia to the city of Perth where he completed an Iron Man in December 2025, as well as visiting two of his aunts on his dad's side and his friends joined up with him too. However, tragically, in between the time we organized this podcast and recorded it, on 26th of January 2026, Callum died from the cancer he'd been getting treatment for, with his funeral held on Friday, the 13th of February 2026. As a result, this podcast will be framed a bit differently to ensure we respect Mark and his family's grief whilst not shying away from the impact that Callum had on Tom's life. In this episode, we discussed the origins of Tom's fitness journey, which came when a 10-year relationship he had been in from 16 to 26 years old ended. We discussed the aftermath of it, the crisis it provoked, and how he used the campaign and the new purpose of raising money for Callum for the time he did. For Tom's mental health journey, we discussed the grief of losing his grandfather on his mum's side, which affected him deeply, and brought on a form of cleaning OCD and health OCD, which has provided a lot of challenges for him since that happened. We unpack the traits this presented in his mental health back then and why, why it carried on beyond the grief and into his adulthood, and whether it presented in him prior to that point but just under the surface. We then discuss how he's managed these traits, navigated a healthy life alongside them, and how the running has quietened these traits for the period of time he's been doing it for. So this is how my conversation with Tom Fester went. Tom, welcome to the Just Checking In Pod. Thank you so much for letting me check in with you. We've had a lot of technical difficulties before we started this, but we are here now. And as you know, I interviewed the absolute legend that is Mark Ferris. And when I saw him show your campaign, obviously very happy to have you on. We're gonna discuss what's happened since we were organized the podcast in loads of great detail. But how are you on this Sunday morning? Well, it's probably not Sunday morning where you are, but how are you on this Sunday morning, mate? You've actually caught me at a good time, Fred.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

I'm in the UK, so it is Sunday morning. We're okay. Oh, Brill. Uh yeah, no, thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. I've obviously got to connect with Mark, which we'll obviously discuss later in the pod anyway. But yeah, something very different for me to uh be on here and have a chat with you, but quite excited actually. Excellent, mate.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Well, we've got lots to discuss, and the listeners will, I'm sure, take loads from your story, from your ability to take risks and step out of your comfort zone to do everything that you've done so far, mate. So without further ado, are you ready to start the show and talk all about it? I think I am. We're gonna start your pod, mate, by talking about your amazing campaign, which was called Tom's Race Around the World. Tell me back to the origins of this idea. How did you come up with it and why?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Um a period of adversity, Fred. So life took a certain turn. I had a breakdown in a relationship and I was struggling, struggling big time, and got to a low enough point that it was action or time for change, and and yeah, I needed to do something. Took a really sort of drastic way out. Um decided to start planning a big trip around the world of different sort of fitness events, and and yeah, it just came together. That was the initial start of it. Um it was very sort of instinctive to begin with. Do I want to do something? Yeah, do it. And before you knew it, it actually turned into this great big sort of movement around the world with fitness events, and it became a bit of a an item as such.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Well, for the listeners for extra context, it was a 10-year relationship you were in, so a massive part of your life. You were in a really bad place with your mental health, and then one day you just wake up and decide to go for a run. What was it that sparked that that would go on to shape everything you've done to this point, mate?

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Uh I think it's reaching that low point. Things can be adverse, I think things can be tough for people, but you sometimes have that pinch moment. That was it for me. I had that moment where it was this is no way to deal with something or a period of adversity, and that run that I essentially had was a massive turning point. It was half an hour of my life that became a really powerful moment. That turning point that you talk about. So just knowing, I think that or having a realisation, I guess, that the way in which you're dealing with things or the way in which you're approaching something can't carry on anymore, and it's not a sustainable way of moving. So I basically turned one extreme into another, which has its negatives in itself, but once balanced out was a really important time for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

And what was it about running as an exercise as opposed to other forms of exercise that made you fall in love with it and gave you this new purpose, basically?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

I think sort of anyone that knows me knows that I'm sport crazy. I've always been sport mad. I've never really been a health and fitness mad. It's sort of I've been that young lad that loves cricket, loves football, all this sort of team sports environments where there's that real sort of social camarader behind it. And I just had a thought that maybe there's an argument to be had that everything I've ever done is with someone, whether it's through a relationship or through sport, and I needed to try and experience what I do love, but in my own sort of setting, and that was health and fitness, that was running. I knew that it was a time in my life where I needed to spend a lot of time on my own and learn a lot about myself, and running allowed me to sort of blend my true love with sport and what I felt like I needed at the time, which was that ability to sort of spend time on my own and think for myself, and it was just that natural blend, really. And obviously, once you do it once or twice, uh sort of there's this common sort of joke, or whether it there is obviously a lot of science behind it about having a like a runner's bug, and once you do it once, you just can't stop. And it was that it was I went for a run and that sort of feeling that you get after. I I can't really describe it, and I'll talk about it in a little while. There's obviously um the marathons, and you get that real sort of heightened emotion after. I've never lost that, even now, still go for a run, and on that finish mark, whether it's 5k, 10k, whatever it might be, at the end, the feeling that you get is one that will always, or for me certainly, will always leave me with positive emotion, really.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Let's talk about the campaign then, because you take the first big step to do the run, and then you take a very, very big step because you want to fly out to Canada. You do that in May 2025, you bring your mum along as well, and you do your first half marathon. So, what was that experience like and why was that the catalyst for everything that preceded it?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Um, yeah, that was a time where I was making some questionable decisions for sure. Um, so it went from a run around the block to run around the park, from a run around the town to it's a Wednesday and I'm gonna book a flight to Canada for Friday. Uh run a half marathon on the Sunday and come back on the Sunday evening. So I quite literally went to Canada for a weekend, which some would consider to be a very bizarre thing to do. But yeah, that happened again in a period of time where I was sort of just very instinctive. I need to do this because this is what's going to sort myself out in this moment. And it was only when I finished Canada that I realised that actually, as erratic as this is, there's something to be had here, there's something sort of really powerful about these kind of moments. I took my mum to Canada. My relationship with her has been superb my whole life. She's one of these people that loves travel. We went and sort of experienced Niagara Falls together and yeah, sort of unforgettable moments, you're not really ever going to take away. And at that point, I kind of realised actually I've not deprived myself, but I've certainly not experienced as much as I maybe could have by now, and that there was scope for me to move on into some kind of worldwide challenge where I could see as much of the world in a setting in which I'm comfortable with or in a setting in which I like, which is being active, being fit and healthy.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

At this point, race around the world hasn't quite started yet. So you've got the idea, you've got people messaging you asking if they can donate, and two of your best mates give you a bit of a kick up the bum, and then you go and want to find a cause to make the journey worthwhile, right? So you're scrolling through GoFundMe, can't find the right one for you, and then you're two or three days from giving up the ghost, and then you find Callum's page. So just tell me why his story spoke to you and why, in your words, as soon as I read it, I didn't blink.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, it was coming back from Canada. I uh I didn't actually land in the UK before I put Brazil. I'd uh I was I was there, I was gone. I I knew that there was something to be had, and yeah, it was instinctive, but it was uh in hindsight, it was something I was really sort of I'm proud I did, and and it was a good move for me. But I came back, I had a conversation with people, people sort of gave you that look as if to say, Are you sure you haven't lost the plot? Is everything okay? The head tilt, yeah, yeah. I couldn't quite answer it with an honest yeah, but it was uh it was certainly a far better place than I've been in before. And yeah, a couple of friends sort of said, Look, you've got a really superb platform here to raise some money. And I was a bit adverse to it, I've been one of these people that for all of the great work that charities do around the world, I've been a little bit hesitant in the past because you never really know where your money goes. Cancer Research, what a wonderful charity. They obviously do brilliant work, but you can't really over pinpoint where your £10 goes, you donate to them, and of course, whatever their work they're doing is fantastic, but it just wasn't for me. Faceless, yeah, exactly. Faceless, yeah. There's no sort of identity behind it, you can't really have that rapport with somebody. And yeah, after a while, I I thought, okay, fine, there is a platform, but I don't have anyone in my life that essentially I feel I want to or need to raise money for. I went on GoFundMe and I didn't know, but they had like a discover page, and it was this idea of like just have a little look around. And I scrolled, I scrolled, gave up. A couple of weeks later, scrolled, gave up, and I thought, no, this just isn't right. It doesn't feel right for me to pick a charity because it's not sort of my way of doing things. I really sort of as a social media user my whole life, I've been sort of really behind closed doors. I've never had a post on my page, my personal page, and uh, it's just so frightening for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

People think you're a burner, exactly that, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

And uh it just yeah, I just think my personality suggested I'm I wasn't really comfortable with creating a platform, and and then I saw Callum's page. Yeah, it got me very, very quickly. At the time, he was a 15-year-old lad. In the words of the GoFundMe page that I saw, so their family had their own GoFundMe page, and there were different people sort of creating their own fundraising streams for him through different pages. But it was a young man who loved school. The background on me is I've taught my whole life, I'm a qualified teacher of sport. He loved his PE and sport and was getting himself into the gym. So a young lad that loved education and loved sport, health and fitness of some kind in his own degree. And Spurs? And Spurs, yeah, that was the bit that I was leading to.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

For your sins.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

When you're kind of um in an R in and then you heard the word Spurs on the end, I think that was the tilt over that said, Yeah, this is the course, this is the one to go for.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

And what were your conversations like with either Mark or sort of other members of the family after you contacted them and in the period between finding his page and embarking on that journey for Callum and yourself, obviously?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, I slept on it. I was far less responsive than I was when I booked Canada or Brazil as an example. But yeah, I slept on it. I just needed to make sure it was for me. I understood it was something big to take on. You don't you don't follow it through unless you're gonna do it properly. I did actually end up having, this is sort of late down line, but some social media struggles, didn't really know how to navigate it, and therefore the raising money side of things gets a bit harder. But I needed to know that I was gonna go through with the challenge itself and running a couple of marathons, which has now turned into some bigger stuff, is it's gonna take its toll on my body. I've had troubles with one of my knees for years, and am I going to actually be able to physically sustain what I'm setting out to um achieve? But yeah, having slept on it, woke up and just thought, look, this is a way of being a very small part of some positive change and a really sort of negative time for a family that are just desperate for help. And even sort of someone like Mark, who I've spoken to at length, but also listened to his podcast review, and even he found it quite difficult to go down this uh avenue of fundraising. It's because there's a little bit of stigma behind it, I guess, in a way. Most men do, I think.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

I find yeah. We kind of feel like if we're doing it with sort of, I don't know, not abandoning our independence, but it almost takes away a little bit of that. Do you know what I mean? Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Or this idea of we're having to admit that we can't quite deal with it ourselves without the support of others. Yeah. And then I made contact with Mark and I got a phone call the same day. We had a conversation at length, we met for a coffee, and we just gnatted and nattered and gnatted.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

No, you two!

SPEAKER_00 15:15

And yeah, he's a he's a superb man, he's somebody that I actually came away from and thought he really is a role model, a role model for Cannum, a role model for people. And yeah, it was easy. Once I'd spoken to it was easy, it was a non-negotiable. It was let's attack this, let's give this a really good go and let's try and support a family in need. My sort of connection with the family was limited, but that was through choice. It didn't feel right to interfere, it felt right to be definitely from a distance, and I think Mark appreciated that in a sense because when sort of things are adverse and there is a situation going on within a family that is quite simply horrific, I'm not really sure what the right word is for it, but I think he appreciated that my time was spent with him or my conversation was spent with him because lots of the conversation around their family was how's Callum, how is his health, how are things moving. And I think people forget that actually there's a lot of people going through a really tough time. So, yeah, that's where the initial conversation came from, and we moved into going forward with me raising money, but at that point, my sort of connection with the family became limited, but for all the right reasons.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Let's come back to the marathons now because you mentioned Brazil. So you travelled to Brazil, you raw dogged a 24-hour coach journey, which I could never do, to a city called Florianopolis, which is a city just south of Rio de Janeiro, and you did a full marathon on August 31st, 2025. So different country, very different climate, very different culture. What was it like running a marathon in the party capital of the world? I imagine in quite searing heat in August.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah, tough. Yeah, it wasn't easy. A 24-hour coach journey south that I didn't actually know I'd sign up for until a couple of weeks before. I just presumed it was very close to Rio de Janeiro. It wasn't at all. Flights had sold out or were extremely, I can't remember to be precise. I think they were extremely expensive because it was an internal flight, but just through the roof. And I thought, okay, fine, 24-hour coach journey. I was still in this frame of mind where sticking myself in adversity was a positive thing to do. And yeah, it was brilliant. I spent 13 days on my own in the middle of a country with sort of very limited resources, very culturally diverse, very culturally different, and that was what this was all about for me from a personal standpoint. So obviously, the challenge itself and raising money for Callum had its absolute purpose, but there was also a purpose here not to lose why I was doing it and what the reason was for me. So Brazil was brilliant because it allowed me to spend some extended period of time on my own. I had that 24-hour coach training that you talk about. I'm when we used to wear raw dogs with for those that don't know what that quite means is I had no access to social media, no Wi-Fi, and yeah, that's tough. That's mentally really quite challenging to read your own thoughts. But actually, someone like me felt like at the time really needed it, and yeah, it was times to think, times to sort of slow down, times to really sort of understand why and what I was doing. Never really met anyone, which again was really tough. It was this idea of just completely spending time on my own, and going back to what I said before. I've spent time with people my whole life, I've never been somebody that's been comfortable in my own company. So, and then the marathon, a 4:30 start in the morning to try and escape 70% humidity. It was really brutal. But yeah, just a way in which the sort of the world comes together. I met a man the night before, and he's oh, you're gonna really struggle for an Uber. And 3:30 in the morning, the man wakes up, gives me a phone call, he says, I'm gonna pick you up from your hotel, take you to the marathon. And yeah, there's just so much around it where the race itself was tough, really, really challenging. I did 30k quite unscathed, but the last 10k my body gave up on me big size. But managed to get through, and that was what it was about for me. Can you start something and can you finish it, whether it's tough, easy, or not, and grit your teeth. And yeah, I grit my teeth, got through it, experienced Rio de Janeiro as a place or Christ the Redeemer, so some really cool things, and had a trip of a lifetime, really.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Your third adventure comes in October 2025, where you go to China and you don't run this time, but you walk, you do a lot of walking, and at one of the world's great wonders, which is the Great Wall of China. So you spend seven days trekking up and down it, a total distance of 65,000 kilometres. So, A, what was that experience like? And B, were you getting any weird looks outside of just being a white man in a predominantly um Chinese country?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Um, that was different, that was very different. Again, brought around its own cultural battles. It was tough, it was really tough, actually. I I found it extremely challenging, sort of by the end of each day. I was I was a shell of the man I started the day at. You're a bag of bones, quite literally. But yeah, that was a really cool trip. That was again, that was the sort of the Asia part of it. I tried to design the sort of challenge that everything I did become that little bit harder than the one I did before. I knew that I was in for something really quite tough. Found a new love for trekking, so I didn't know that I was going to enjoy it, really enjoyed it. Since then, I've done a three-piece challenge and sort of found again. I think China was really important for this finding yourself kind of vibe. And that was the first time in which I felt like myself again. Yeah, it was a period of time again, away from people. I'd met some people out there, it was very different kind of trip, and people from all different walks of life, and you could share your story with in a really open forum and why you're doing what you're doing, and came back from China and and I felt like actually, do you know what? These fitness activities started from a real sort of erratic place, but I felt an element of calmness when I came home from China, and it was it was a really important time for me, actually. Came back and was a very different character on the term.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Just going deeper there, do you think it was something about the walking as opposed to the running that maybe you were able to be in your thoughts a bit more, or you had some more time to reflect as opposed to the marathon? Where yes, you could be in your thoughts, but most of it is on one foot in front of the other, getting through the marathon and in a good time, especially when you're in 35 degree heat and 70% humidity. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

It was calmer, it was tougher for sure, but yeah, you had periods of time where you could sit and you could chill out. I've got some wonderful photos that I'll cherish forever where you are literally looking over acres and acres of land in China and it's so picturesque. And there were moments where you sat and and you appreciated life for what it was when you again I use this word adversity all the time, but when things in life feel so Certain way and feel adverse, they're the moments that sort of bring you back down to earth and realise just how lucky we are, just how lucky we are to be able to even experience these things. But not everyone decides to. Have lots of people in my network that sort of, oh, you're so lucky, you've seen so much of the world this year. And I sort of do challenge them every now and again and say, is there that much stopping you? Of course, there's a financial barrier to everything. That's something that's quite tough to sort of navigate. But I'm a big advocate, certainly since coming back from China, to say to people there is a big wide world out there. Please make sure you go and see. But yeah, China was that time to really soak it all in. Everything else so erratic, that was karma, that was softer, that was a time to reflect for sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

And finally, in December 2025, you fly to Australia where you combine a family visit to two of your aunts with running an Iron Man in Perth. So again, December in Australia, it's not August in Australia, but it's still quite balmy, I'd imagine. And when I rang you for our chat off air, this might have been before Christmas, you had just completed a skydive. So just tell me about this whole experience. I think I actually said to you, did you booze on it? You were like, Yeah, yeah, had a couple. A few bits for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Yeah, there was the next challenge. Can I do a um Iron Man in Australia in adverse heat? When you say it's not quite August, obviously December is actually the Australian height of summer, so we were at Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Oh yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

We were at extreme heats out there. That's hot as fucking shit, mate. You're talking the heat you've not felt standing at the start line thinking that's pure death. This is really, really early, and it's really, really hot. I'm gonna be in trouble in not a long time. Yeah, no, that was good. I haven't really sort of reflected on the whole half marathon, marathon. China's a bit difficult because there's so much training you can do, but I didn't actually really train for many of these events at all, and that was intentional. That was this idea of turning it into a mental challenge. Can you sort of basically get yourself through it from a mind point of view? How strong can you be? How resilient can you be? Might have taken it to a bit of an extreme by then booking an Iron Man because that needs training, whether you like it or not. I think I think most people could probably get through a marathon with grit, albeit you certainly still need to make sure you do your bit. But I was at the start line of the Iron Man and thought this is the first one I'm not going to complete. This is going to be really quite tough. Spoke to a man at the start line who scaremongered me massively. So, oh well, how's your training been? What you've been up to? And I kind of said, Oh, actually, I've decided to just just use this word raw dog again, but decided to uh not do a lot at all. I'd swum twice in a pool. I took my label off my wetsuit before I started. I picked up a bike from my cousin's friend out there that I now know had a front brake attached whilst I was riding it. And yeah, I I will never pretend I'm an athlete, it's something I'd never pretend I've been throughout this, but I've been very uh off the cuff for sure. And and actually that's the luxury of what I've been doing in a way. So yeah, completed the Iron Man just inside the threshold before they kick you out. The swim was brutal. Swimming in the sea for two kilometres, having not completed a kilometre in the pool, let alone the sea, before I got out there, and I popped my head up out of the sea at least six or seven times, thinking this is just mad, this is absolutely mental. I don't need to be doing this. So why am I uh and actually there are moments in there where it sounds very cliche, but you need a reason, you need a reason to carry on. And I had my reason, which was most of the time throughout all the challenges was for myself. I kept reminding myself, you're doing this for you, the byproduct is doing something to support somebody or a family. But actually, at that moment, that was the first time amongst all of it where I went, I can't give up because there's people relying on me. And yeah, managed to go through the swim, which was the bit that I thought if I'm not gonna do at all, I'm not gonna be able to. That was an hour, then spent four hours on the bike through the Perth countryside as such, 90 kilometres on the bike, which was brilliant. It was flat, which was a benefit because had it not been flat, I think I might have missed the threshold. And then I done a run at the end in nowhere near what I would consider my record half marathon time, but having done a fairly long swim and a fairly long bike, it was something I really wasn't worried about. I was there for completion. I certainly wasn't there to challenge the world record holders to be the best Iron Man in the world. So yeah, that was the race itself.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

We've come to the difficult part of this podcast, mate, because before we spoke, Callum was very much alive. You were doing all this amazing work for him, he was going through treatment, but over the course of Christmas and January, his health declined very severely, very quickly. And tragically, on 26th of January 2026, Callum died from his brain cancer. Just tell me first how you found out the news and how his death impacted your mental health in the first few weeks and the last few months, mate, as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah, that was tough. That was tough to navigate in a way where I hadn't had all the sort of personal touch with Callum as such that I made sure I was on the outskirts and my communication was with Mark, but I was devastated for the family tenfold. It really did affect me quite quietly. Obviously, I one of these people that was on the outskirts, and I spent a lot of time on my own, and that hit me, and it hit me quite hard. Well, mainly from a standpoint of I'd devoted sort of six months of my own well-being towards a project to raise money for them, and it just felt like it felt like a time in which I just had to stop what I was doing and soak in what was happening to Mark and his family. It was really quite tough. Um, I found out through the same communication stream as as almost everyone else, which was them sort of letting people know in bulk and reading that just deflated myth. It was something sort of you read it, you come to expect it from the updates that we were getting. You knew that it was a possibility, but you never really appreciate the imminence, you never really know how imminent something like that can be. I've got someone else in my life that was diagnosed with terminal cancer about 18 months ago, and and that's been sort of you don't know. You don't know whether you've got a day with the people you love or you've got another year with the people you love, and I think the imminence of it was really quite tough to swallow. But again, on behalf of their family, because that's where my sort of love was. My love was with Mark, my love was of course with Callum and the family, but I struggled, but I really struggled with how much people around Callum were going to be affected by what had happened.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

At this time, mate, you've got these two North Stars for the campaign, right? You've got helping Callum, and you've got this journey of self-development, self-discovery, and growth, hopefully, at the same time. So when you lose one of them, what has the campaign become now?

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Um having taken the time to sort of swallow Callum's passing as such, it's become important for me to understand why I did it in the first place, what my reason was. It was about this period of growth. And okay, it came from a split from somebody that I spent a large part of my life with. So that's become very minor to this idea of growing as a person because actually, as an element or an idea to be had that I now reflect on it and think these kind of things need to happen to everyone to be able to grow as a person and to be able to move forward and to be able to become a character that you're proud of, I guess. And like for example, sitting here and talking to you, this is something that I talk about old me and new me. Old me would not be sat here, I wouldn't be able to I wouldn't be able to express my emotions properly, I wouldn't be able to open up, I wouldn't be able to be a modern day man, I guess, in a way where this is appropriate and this is something that we're happy to do as men. This is something completely different, but I've got a great relationship with my dad, but he's your old school man that this is just his worst nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Hey, hope for him yet, mate. Hope for him yet.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

So, yeah, I think this idea of these two North Stars is remembering why in the first place. I've since spoken with Mark and about shifting any further funds raised to a hospice was closely associated with Callum. So and it's not been the right time just yet, but I fully intending continuing a really positive relationship with Mark. I think he's a fantastic person, uh, holds extremely, extremely good values. And I think you know, when you sort of catch up with somebody and you walk away from a moment, and again, I didn't converse with him very often at all, but he's the type of person that I wouldn't want to stop what I'm doing. It's not that I owe it to him or to Callum or to anyone or to myself, but it gives me the idea of that me now going on to continue the challenge for myself is something that he'd be proud of on my behalf, and yeah, that's something quite special in itself.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

I want to reflect on this campaign now, mate. So, first of all, you said to me off air when we spoke, I want balance and purpose in life through this. Has this campaign given you that yet or not?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Uh getting there for sure. Yeah, I kind of need to, not need to. It came from a, as I say, I had a split of 10 years, but maybe a catalyst or a catalyst, not the catalyst, but definitely a catalyst. But there was a need for some sort of positive change in there. And I think again, to sort of become a all-rounded, balanced person, sometimes you do need to go to an absolute extreme to bring yourself back down. Is it the extreme low or is it the extreme high? I hit an extreme low just in in this idea of probably the word depression, I'd say. In fact, definitely the word depression, and just things can't get any worse. And I've taken it from an extreme low to an extreme high. And for anyone that sort of knows the mental health cues as such, it's not necessarily a positive thing to do, is to go from extreme low to extreme high because what I did find is I've done four events now, and immediately after each of the events, I've struggled massively because you've hit that high and there's nowhere to go other than to come back down again. But what I did notice is I came back from Australia and I dealt with it a little bit better than I dealt with it in China, and from China to Brazil. And so, yeah, the balance is definitely coming. I run because I want to be fit and healthy, and I know it's good for me. I eat a lot cleaner now, and yeah, I just I found I found that having something to look forward to is something that I thrive on, and I think the message for myself, or maybe if anyone sort of wants to take anything away from it, is finding what healthy looks like for you, and what healthy looks like as an individual to yourself, and healthy for me is having something to look forward to, never making out like that's all that ever matters, but just something that if I'm currently at point A, what does point B look like? How can I navigate my way through it and have a positive experience? So, yeah, I'm getting there. There's moments where people still think I'm barking mad, but yeah, balance is something I'm really, really keen on, and it's something I'm really working towards at the moment, and yeah, I feel a lot calmer as an individual, and I've certainly collected almost all of myself to be a balanced individual.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And what's been your proudest achievement on this journey so far, mate?

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Ooh, good question. Um donating money, raising money. I spoke about earlier, sort of never been a social media user. I really had to push myself out of a comfort zone in that sense. I sort of started posting a few times, and people around me thought, this isn't you, this is really uh it was little things posting a run and posting this and posting that, posting a fundraising page, making sure it was consistent. I had periods of consistency, periods of non-consistency, and realised that when you weren't consistent, there was a correlation with how well it was doing as a fundraising project. So yeah, I think that I think devoting the time to be able to come outside my comfort zone and do something that I knew I wasn't comfortable with. But when you think about the reason behind it, and there's obviously such a positive reason there to be had, I think yeah, proud of that. I was definitely proud of this idea of making sure that I did something that that I certainly wasn't comfortable with, but uh looking past that and making sure that I identify the reason to be far outweigh this idea of me just not liking my face on a page.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

And as a final question before we move on, mate, what has the campaign and this journey so far taught you about yourself as well?

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Um, it's taught me that anything is possible, I guess. It's taught me that you fix your mind to something, you can do it for sure. There are no barriers to life. I love travel, I love health and fitness, and I've combined the two of them through that. And the thing that I've taken away from it is don't let anything stop you. If there is a barrier in place, how can we remove that barrier? And that I've taken that through every sort of walk of life. That that's the really, really big extreme is the barrier is can I do an Iron Man in Australia? The answer is yes, I can do it, which is very, very extreme. But I've taken that into my everyday life as well, which is how can I face adversity today? It might be something really simple. I do a little bit of work in childcare still, and it might be a simple daily task, where it's before I was very sort of like, oh, I don't really want to attack these things, and now I'm a bit more sort of I'm gonna get this head first and make sure I can get past whatever's in front of me on that day. So yeah, just that nothing life is too difficult, and to throw your hand to everything.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

We've talked about the incredible campaign. Let's go deeper and talk about your own mental health journey, Tom. So I ask all my special guests on this topic this question first. Take me back to early life in Hertfordshire, teenage years, and looking back, were there any early mental health experiences, if any?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Who's the Tom we meet here? Okay, so I grew up in Whetstone, North London, went to primary school down that way, moved up to Hertfordshire when I was a young lad, so five or six years old, and I've spent my life here since. Got a very normal family dynamic, two brothers, parents are still together. I've been married, God I should know this, but 25 years. Yeah, things have been sort of about as mainstream as mainstream can get for a family. Um, through teaching, I've seen all sorts of sort of family dynamics that exist, and that's never been something that I've had to potentially go through as such. In terms of sort of early mental health concerns, I've always found it really hard to hold memory, so it's really tough for me to answer that question. Um, somebody that sort of, what did you have for dinner yesterday? And it's uh I'm not quite sure, let alone how life looked like as a 12-year-old boy. But yeah, my teenagers were quite interesting. I had a family bereavement that took me by surprise. That was probably my first experience of understanding mental health, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Well, let's talk about that grief, mate, because it was your granddad on your mum's side. You were about 17 or 18 at the time when he died. Just tell me what his name was, your relationship with him and the man he was.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Yeah, it was my mum's dad, Ken, granddad to me, of course. Relationship with him was limited. I was a teenage lad that was drinking beer far too early and socializing. I wasn't really that. It was a bit of a nightmare, actually, as a 15-16-year-old. You have a conversation with my mum now, and she's I was the middle child, I was the difficult one. Same mate. That was the one that's made like Belphora, the one that when they saw the 01707 number from the school, she knew who she was talking about. Um, but yeah, that's why the situation took me by surprise massively. As I had a relationship with him that people have with their grandparents, some people are really close with their grandparents, some people aren't so close. I just had that normal kind of, oh, we're gonna go out and see Grandad on Sunday, do we have to? That kind of thing. And he passed and I didn't think much of it, and it turned into something really quite significant for me. I developed, and I'll talk about I guess as I move on, but developed OCD through that, which is something like it's got so many strands to it. But my sort of relationship with it was that I felt the need to protect the people around me. It was I absorbed his passing as somehow being my fault now as a 27-year-old man, rationally. I know that that's just ridiculous, but when you're in that moment and you're 16 years old and you can't have that rational thought, you can't slow yourself down. It was tough. It was a really tough period.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Well, let's talk about the OCD traits in more detail, mate, because as you said to me off air, your granddad's death, in your words, butchered you as an individual, right? And yes, your other siblings dealt with it fairly well, but for you it had some very severe knock-on effects. Like you said, the OCD traits, you also stopped going to school for quite a period of time. And these OCD traits were manifesting in the form of cleaning OCD alongside very severe health anxiety. What I want to understand is were the traits lingering under the surface, did you have OCD prior to that and they came exploding to the surface because of it? Or were these grief-driven that you were able to sort of manage and overcome with time?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Um, really hard to answer in terms of was there an element of something going on before? I was a protective person, always wanted to make sure that I could be the protector of my mum and my family, or the people around me. It definitely came to the surface through that. That was the catalyst as such. So before I'm not too sure, but for sure, as soon as it came to the surface, it came to the surface. I I knew it was something quite significant. It presented itself in a cleanliness way. I don't really know why. Had this sort of understanding that if I wasn't able to make sure that I couldn't affect the people around me through health and illness, then let's just say, in that period of time, touch wood, I mean, somebody like my mum got poorly. I'd soak that and I'd somehow assume responsibility for it. To people, that sounds, I imagine would sound very bizarre, but it's that's what OCD is, mate. Of course, I think just it just in that moment you cannot take that step back, you're in it, you can't see it for what it is, you can't understand that there is a side to this that's irrational or extremely irrational, it's just how you consume it. I had all sorts of issues, I had things like again, it was all protection-based, so how can I ensure that no one gets hurt? So things like burglary, I used to be petrified and sleep by the door, and just it was really quite extreme. Yeah, that's how it presented itself, but the base of it was around protection. Can I make sure the people that in my life I love are protected? Which actually the hindsight of it has its positives, and again, this is me reflecting, and uh I try and turn everything into a silver lining situation, which is that's quite lovely in itself, because I didn't want the people around me to be at risk, and that was because that was my personality, and actually still is, just in a far healthier manner. I am a protector of people, I like to think that I put other people first. I have this thing in the back of my mind, which is a this idea of what happened with Callan, which is I'm doing something for me, but I can't just do it for myself. There has to be someone else that not necessarily I can protect, but that I can support as such, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

I've spoken with many guests who've had OCD or OCD traits, mate, and one I spoke to recently was a great man called Richard Campion, and he has diagnosed OCD and very similar traits to yours, whereby this key theme that runs through both your experiences is safety and protecting your loved ones, and the rituals or traits that are provoked from them are as a result of that, right? So, how did you begin to unpick these and not succumb? I don't know if that's the right word, to the rituals, but still be able to feel like you can, you know, protect and support your family in a healthy way, like you said.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Um, support. Support. I wasn't adverse to support. I was to begin with, that sort of teenage approach of no chance, but got to a very low point and realised it's something I needed. I stand by the fact that it might have saved my life. I know that sounds really extreme, but at the time that's how deep things got. And yeah, I knew that I needed help. I knew that I needed to change. I knew that things needed to turn a corner. I saw a lady, I'll keep her name off air just in case, but she was brilliant. So I will never forget her name. I will never forget giving her a bunch of flowers the day that I was discharged from having a conversation with her. And it's you say the word discharge like you've been discharged from hospital from a broken leg, but it is the same thing, it is just an element of health from which somebody needs support on. And yeah, it's something I needed to do at the time. It certainly helped me. I went through behavioural CBT therapy, which basically exposed yourself to situations where you feel uncomfortable and there were some really uncomfortable moments in there, but it's proven, it's researched, and I think I've always been quite a logical thinker, and that was where I was okay with sort of understanding okay, the logical thing here is to go with the people that are far more experienced in these fields than I am, and to take over my thinking because I wasn't equipped to think sensibly or to think rationally at the time. It still presents itself now in different ways. Like I would probably consider myself a bit cleaner and a bit more observant than other people. It massively affected my relationship for a long time. Actually, coming out of that, it cleared up. Really quickly, like things got a lot easier. I don't know why. I think it was potentially because I've never been worried about myself. It's not like I need to do this because I am going to be affected by it. But I had somebody that was we were very tight, right? You're in a relationship, you're on top of each other, and at that point, I almost feel myself now thinking about it. You get uptight. Okay, fine, how can I protect? And the real delicate bit about that was there was a fine line between being protective and being over-protective and smothering and didn't really get that balance right at times. I didn't know it was all from a very positive place or from a good place, but you just have to um it was ill health meeting a relationship and making sure that what you do is healthy. But coming out of that, it's a really positive thing again to experience because now you can reflect and you understand that there is a way of experiencing a relationship, but being a really positive protector and making sure that you've got someone's best interest at heart. So again, silver lining approach is yeah, it's been tough and it's been a really tough period, but it's an opportunity to learn.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

And just going deeper before you reflect, what were some of the tools that you developed through therapy that you keep with you now? Or maybe you can give us an example to some of the listeners who might be going through what you did, mate.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Um, this isn't necessarily tools, but the message is to not be adverse to being supported. We can't get through everything on our own. It's not possible. I'm a massive talker. I wasn't a talker 12 months ago. Got a really tight friend. We speak on the phone daily, and sometimes you need those people in your life. And if you haven't got them, having somebody and building that relationship and connection with someone is really important. In terms of tools, the tools I learnt for therapy were to understand that periods of uncomfortableness aren't necessarily negative experiences. Sometimes they can be positive, sometimes they're the reasons in which you can be one percent better than the day you were before. When I say better, I don't mean like a percentage of health like a phone battery as such, but more this idea of just realizing that having a balance between seeking help and helping yourself are really important things, and when I got that balance right, where I seek some help and made sure that I use that to then help myself was really important, and that was through exposure again. That was part of CBT therapy that unless you've had it or you really understand it might not get, but lots of what I do is about okay, this is a situation that makes me tense and makes me anxious. So if I expose myself to it on a 5% or a 10% level, then I'm five percent closer to where I need to be. So that's one of the tools I used and definitely supported me throughout.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Let's reflect on your mental health journey now, mate. So, similar question as before, first of all, what has this mental health journey taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Um forgive me if it sounds like repeating myself, that we are really strong people and every person has their own power and strength, but that there is no shame in using a network of people, whether that's health professionals, whether that's friends, whether that's family, our mental health is our own, but also has an effect on people around you. I had a really, really negative effect on not my relationship with my mum, but my mum as a person. I am not a mum, I'm not a dad. And when you do talk to parents and they talk about that thing where you will never understand the feeling of what it's like to be a parent until you're a parent. I haven't had that yet. Whether I have that or not in my life, I don't know. But it's taught me that it had a really negative effect on her, and that's something that I carry with me. Again, I don't dwell on it because that's not going to be beneficial to me. But it's taught me that having those people around you is is important, and that even though there are a network of people around you, you are strong enough in yourself to make sure that as adverse as things can get, you'll be alright.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

And as a final question, mate, if you could go back and talk to that 17 or 18-year-old Tom who just lost his granddad, the 26-year-old Tom who'd just come out of that 10-year relationship, or the Tom who was about to embark on his race around the world, what would you say to him, knowing what you do now, if anything at all?

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Um I would say I would say be forgiving. Be forgiven of yourself. These things don't happen on purpose. Nobody puts themselves in a situation where they want their mental health to be through the floor, or they want I'd yeah, that's a very difficult question to answer, actually. I think I'd tell myself that there is always something I can be doing to put myself in a positive position on a given day, week, month, or year. So just to try an action and try and make positive change where possible is something that was a really, really healthy move for me, really.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Our final topic of conversation, Tom, and it's one I try and have with all of my special guests if we have time. It is a general Natter and quick fire chat about our mental health. So, firstly, how is your mental health out of 10? Uh eight.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Never too high, never too low. Things are good. Yeah, I'm in a good place. Spoke about the balance side of things earlier, so yeah, finding that balance is important. Just about getting there. I don't think you'll ever hear me say 10 because there's always room to make sure that we're in a place where we're feeling good.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

What age were you when you became self-aware of your mental health and you realized that the feelings you were having weren't physical and they were actually in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Uh late teens, that period of adversity that I spoke about earlier in the pod, where um, yeah, a period of bereavement and realizing that sometimes things happen and and we've got something to deal with. And was it a Eureka moment when it happened or a gradual process? It was a gradual process. Yeah, it happened over a period of time, and the way in which I dealt with it was a long process as well. But sometimes things don't happen in an instance. But making sure that you're not giving up on yourself was something that was really important at that time.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

If you can remember, tell me about the first or the most important conversation you ever had with someone about your mental health. So if you can remember, who was it with? What did you say, and how do you look back on it? Did it feel like this big moment or weight had been lifted, or on the other hand, something quite easy and normal to do?

SPEAKER_00 50:15

I actually seeked external help through therapy, as I spoke about before. It was the fourth person that I saw. I saw three people once, and you know, and you know you have that feeling, and lots of people you gotta do therapy shopping. Yeah, it's a real thing, mate. It's a real thing. I I saw a man, I knew that I wasn't comfortable at that time speaking to a man. Oh, how times have changed. Uh saw somebody else just didn't have that connection. Then I saw, I think it was one more, and then I saw a lady. And when I saw her, I knew. I knew there was a moment in which I just felt comfort, and when you feel comfort, you feel like you can expose yourself. And if you feel like you can expose yourself, then you're definitely in a positive environment to deal with something adverse.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

What things do you find in life, mate, that trigger your mental health? So it could be things people say, a sound, smell, taste, sensation, or have you not figured all of them out yet?

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Certainly haven't figured it all out yet. I think that again, this might be the teacher in me, but I feel like we always have an opportunity to learn. And one of the things that I'm learning is there are different things that happen, and you're like, right, okay, fine, that's something else to deal with. I know that routine is something that's really important for me. So routine is something that definitely, when I'm off routine, I find things quite challenging. And actually, just a return to routine can be something that's quite it's only a quick fix, it doesn't isn't necessarily a long-term fix, is but I think over a period of time of with this idea of balance is I found the things that work for me as a person. They might not work for Freddie, they might not work for the person next to Freddie, but for as long as I can find what positive mental health looks like for me, a return to that is something I've used as quite an effective tool.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Conversely, what positive tools and methods do you use to improve your mental health or help you feel better? Which ones have worked and which ones have you tried but haven't?

SPEAKER_00 51:56

I think I've just accidentally answered that. But yeah, uh I can give a physical answer to it as well as this idea of a return to routine. But that's something that I've really benefited from is understanding that your physical health complements your mental health. And when I'm physically unhealthy or again out of routine, but if we look at the physical side of it, then actually I find a dip in my mental health. So making sure that my routine includes the things that make me feel good physically can certainly have a positive impact on my mental health, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

What is the best book, or as I call it, mental health Bible you've read for your mental health? Now it can be self-help or mental health related, it doesn't have to be, it can be fiction, and if you can't think of a book, album, TV show, any piece of popular culture?

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Um I'm not a reader, Fred. Never have been. I typically will read this, isn't a very good question for me, actually, because lots of people are very sort of like positive readers and they and they read into. I'll try and give sort of a side answer to it, but any reading that is of a self-help is something that I have actually had a positive relationship with. Sometimes it might just be this idea of feeling on the floor. And I'll give a tool, I have an app on my phone that's brilliant, and it just pops up once a day, or it might be once an hour, you can set it to wherever it might be, and it will just pump something out at you that might turn around to you and that might affect your day in a positive sense. It's called motivation theory. I think the app is called itself. Okay. Type in motivation on the app store, and it's just this idea of okay, things can get really tough. Um, got one on my phone that's no, it's not there's not one that's popped up now. I was hoping there was the one of my notifications. But yeah, it's just it's a tool, it's not really an answer to your question, but it's something that's good though, it's a good one, mate. Yeah, so have this idea of periods of time where you might be in a negative state of mind, and something like that might pop up and change your day.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Well, that brings me on to my next question nicely, which is if there was a mantra in life that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Um mantra in life that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why? Create a platform that allows your mental health to be a positive experience. There's lots of things we can do in life that allows the bigger picture to be positive and just the smaller things in life if there's 10 pieces to the puzzle, making sure those pieces are in place for the bigger puzzle to be fixed. If you look at it as just mental health as a general word, it's quite daunting, it's quite threatening as a big dark word that mental health can sometimes be perceived as. So I look at the little things to make sure the bigger thing feels like a positive.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

What do you love about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Um I love that I'm not adverse to risk. I'm not prepared to put myself in vulnerable positions now. Now I certainly wasn't that way. So I love that I've grown proud of that. I am really proud of it. I hear it externally. Sometimes you hear things and you don't consume it. But I actually do soak that in. I try to remain sort of like really leveled about it. But actually, I think there isn't that much of a negative to be had in turning around to yourself and saying, actually, no, you're doing well. You are doing things or being an individual that I'm proud of, and actually I feel for the first time probably in my life proud of myself.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

And as a final question, mate, you can answer it any way you want. What more do you think we have to do to ensure men from all backgrounds, all walks of life, feel comfortable and safe in opening up about their mental health issues or just their general mental health, if most importantly, they want to do it?

SPEAKER_00 55:30

I had an experience, I was in Australia after my Iron Man, where my four best mates from school came out. There was five of us, it was Christmas Day, and um somebody brought up a conversation about something very sort of your old traditional man wouldn't be sad and had a conversation about, and it was amazing to see the different responses to it. I was sort of really open and I'd changed as a character, and I was prepared to talk about my feelings, my emotions, and there was sort of all sorts of different responses around the table, and there was one really sort of close response from a really good friend of mine, been a good friend of mine for life, but conversations like we're having today just are something that he's never ever exposed himself to, and that exposure was really quite powerful for him on that day, and actually it brought him out, and he spoke in a way I've never heard him speak before. So that is a memory I've held of men in conversation where, in answer to your question, exposing each other to conversations that might not necessarily happen unless we create that exposure, and I'll never hesitate, nor will I ever push somebody that doesn't want to talk or doesn't want to be a certain way, but I'll certainly be an advocate for turning around and making sure I ask how someone is. It's one of my things. I make sure that I've got a group of people that every now and again I'll just drop that little message along to how's things, how's things been? Might be a phone call, it might be a message, but in short, it's a quick fire question, not answering in a long way, but don't be adverse to talking.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

No, it's a great answer, mate. And I always say to people on this podcast and in my general life that sometimes you've got to be the first man over the parapet, as it were. And also, some men won't find talking helpful, but they'll find seeing other men talking helpful. So that's always something to important to know as well, like your mate was. Tom, it has been an absolute pleasure. I know you said you're proud of yourself, but I'm proud of you as well, mate. Thank you so much for coming on the Just Checking In podcast and talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Thanks, mate. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, and um, I'm sure we'll catch up soon.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

Well, that's all we've got time for on this episode of the Just Checking In pod. A big thank you to Tom for being my special guest and for letting me check in with him and telling all of you about the campaign and a very special young man called Callum. As always, thank you to all the venters who've tuned into this episode. Remember, if you've liked what you've heard, give it a share on social media by tagging us at VentHelp UK. Tell your friends, family, or work colleagues about us. If you're feeling generous, please do write us a review and give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts, or you can go to patreon.com slash venthelpuk to make any further support. We hope to check in with you again very soon. And remember guys, it is always okay. It's event.