JCIP #345 - Richard Pomfrett

In episode 345 of The Just Checking In Podcast we checked in with Richard Pomfrett. 

Richard is the Founder and CEO of Boyz-2-Men, an organisation which is dedicated to supporting boys and young men through their journey into adulthood. They offer a supportive environment where they can learn, grow, and navigate the complexities of masculinity with confidence.

B2M believe every young person has the potential to become a role model, so their programmes are tailored to help boys and young men understand and overcome the challenges posed by gender stereotypes and societal expectations. 

By engaging with primary and secondary school students, they provide the tools they need to develop into healthy, thoughtful, and responsible individuals. 

In this episode we discuss Richard’s professional journey, how he came to found B2M, the programs they offer to young men and the work they do and the impact they have on the young men they work with.

We also have a wider conversation about where men and boys are right now in the UK, the importance of reaching in and listening to them, and how we move forward with a unifying message in this space. 

For Richard’s mental health journey, we discuss his diagnosis of Dyslexia, and how it shaped his education and adolescence growing up in the 1970s and 80s, how society’s education of it has changed and how he felt when he was diagnosed at 40 years old. 

We also talk about how getting into martial arts and combat sports was pivotal to his life path, the life skills it gave him and why it gave him a solid foundation for the rest of his life going forward.

As always, #itsokaytovent

You can find out more about Boyz-2-Men here: https://boyz-2-men.org.uk/.

You can find out more about The Stay Safe Initiative here: https://thestaysafeinitiative.org.uk/.

You can follow Richard on social media here: https://www.instagram.com/thestaysafeinitiative/.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of the Just Checking In Podcast. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. In each episode, I check in with a special guest. We have a natter and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. My special guest for this episode is Richard Pomfret. Richard is the founder and CEO of Boys to Men, an organization which is dedicated to supporting boys and young men through their journey into adulthood. They offer a supportive environment where boys can learn, grow, and navigate the complexities of masculinity with confidence. Boys to Men believe every young person has the potential to become a role model, so their programs are tailored to help boys and young men understand and overcome the challenges posed by gender stereotypes and societal expectations. By engaging with primary and secondary school students alike, they provide the tools they need to develop into healthy, thoughtful, and responsible individuals. I came across Boys to Men through an article by a young man called Josh Sargent in The Guardian called I'm a Teenager Who Was Lured Into the Manosphere, Here's How to Reach Young Men Like Me. And he referenced Boys to Men as an organization who was doing great work in the men's space. In this episode, we discussed Richard's professional journey, how he came to found Boys to Men, the programs they offer to young men, and the work they do and the impact they have on the young men they work with. We also have a wider conversation about where men and boys are right now in the UK, the importance of reaching in and listening to them, and how we move forward with a unifying message in this space. For Richard's mental health journey, we discuss his diagnosis of dyslexia and how it shaped his education and adolescence growing up in the 1970s and 80s. We talk about how societies of education of it has changed and improved in recent years, and how he felt when he was diagnosed at 40 years old. We also talk about how getting into martial arts and combat sports was pivotal to his life path, the life skills it gave him, and the solid foundation for the rest of his life going forward. So this is how my conversation with Richard Pomfret went. Richard, welcome to the Just Checking In Pod. Thank you so much for letting me check in with you, mate. When I came across the great work you are doing through Josh Sargent's article in The Guardian, I emailed you straight away. We had a lovely chat off air, so I'm really excited for this one. How are you on this Saturday morning, mate?

SPEAKER_02 3:10

I'm all good, thanks, Freddie. Yeah, really great to be here. We had a good conversation. I'm looking forward to this one.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

So yeah, all good. We have got so much to talk about, mate, and you are doing such incredible work. So thank you again on behalf of Vent and the podcast. And without further ado, are you ready to start the show and talk all about your amazing journey? Let's do it. We're going to start your pod, mate, by talking about your wider professional journey as you had a career before Boys to Men. So take me back to the beginning and how it all started and the work you've done supporting children, young people, and adults for over 25 years now.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, I'm showing my age with that. That's come up on a few podcasts, actually. So yeah, my journey working with young people specifically started over 25 years ago. And that was through the world of martial arts back in the day. Unfortunately, not anymore because my day job is just too busy. But yeah, I used to be a martial arts instructor. And through that journey, I used to teach adults as well as children. So that was my entry into working with children, which I absolutely loved. I love seeing their progression. I love seeing like kids come in to me that were unsure about all this and then build confidence and resilience and all that stuff. So that got me into working with young people. But that work also highlighted that lots of kids needed a little bit more than what I was potentially giving them in that environment. And the reason why I say that is that lots of parents, and it was really parent-led, lots of parents used to bring their children to my class, uh, local kids in the area, because they were having issues at school. They ticked all the boxes, you know, low self-esteem, quite shy, introverted. And because of that, they were having issues in regards to either being bullied or their parents were fearful that they may be a target for bullying one day. And as lots of parents think, and I get it, lots of parents think, well, we'll get them into something like that, get them into martial arts. That will build them up, that will boost them, that will give them, you know, lots of confidence, and essentially they'll become bullyproof. And that's generally the mindset for lots of parents. Now, that approach can work for lots of children. Absolutely. It did for me, but it's not for everyone. And what I mean by that is lots of parents used to bring them to my class. They wanted them to be there, but the kids didn't really want to be there. It wasn't their environment. So after a month or two, you know, quite often some of these kids would leave. It's not for them. And this happened quite a few times. And obviously, these were kids from my local community. And this happened a few times. So actually, there could be a little bit of a better way we could sort of support some of these kids. Now, at the time, I've got three kids myself. At the time, my children were very, very young. And I contacted a couple of local primary schools that my kids were attending and said, like, you know, we've got a little bit of an issue. There's quite a few kids coming to my class, they're struggling at school, they're struggling with friendships, but they're leaving. Would you be happy for me to come in and do a little bit of work with some of your kids around resilience, self-esteem, looking at bullying and things like that. With our children's programme, we had like lots of these sort of subjects that we would touch on anyway as part of our syllabus. So I thought, you know, expand that a little bit and come to school. This wasn't with anything in mind for a career or the bigger picture, which it's turned into. It was just how can I help some of these kids that are leaving my class? And I did it. The schools were like, Yeah, brilliant, let's do this. And went in, delivered a few sessions to a few schools. They loved it, said, Oh, can you come back next year? And that sort of like set the wheels in motion where lots of schools started to contact me and say, Oh, you've been here. Can you come to our school? And at the start, it was like, I wasn't charging anything. It was just like coming and help them. And then I thought, actually, they could actually develop into something more. So I set up an organization. It's changed its name over the years, but now we're known as the Stay Safe Initiative. We're a community interest company that works directly with young people in schools. And I developed some programs. It started off looking at that issue of people's life, bullying, friendship, building resilience, giving them some tools and skills and how to deal with certain interactions, all to do with building self-worth and confidence. And we're going to sort of fast forward time now. That then progressed into lots of schools I was working with. The online world started to become a little bit more playing a part in young people's life. So obviously, in our bullying work, we looked at the online area of, you know, online bullying and dealing with online hate. But as children's lives grew in the digital environment, we started to get schools saying, Oh, could you focus a little bit more on just the digital landscape? You know, other areas of that. So for me, it's been a like a real educational journey all the way through. So then, yeah, we developed programs to support people in that area of their life, helping them to be safe online. Lots of it started around safety, helping them to understand, you know, serious topics in regards to exploitation, other online harms, bullying, hate. Again, to help them be safe and think critically about their interactions with people on the internet. But also it was to help them actually have a positive experience online as well. Because, especially nowadays, we live in a world where, yes, safety is important, but young people's online life is ingrained in their life. You know, it's how they communicate, it's how they interact through, you know, messaging apps, social media and stuff like that. So we continue doing the safety aspect, but also giving them some guidance of how they can have a positive time online, giving that freedom to have positive interactions and experiences. So that progressed us to working through primary schools, that moved into secondary schools, and you know, working with older children, teenagers, and young adults. And then shortly after coming out of lockdown, lots of the schools that we were supporting with children in their online aspect of their life started to contact us and say, Oh, we're starting to hear some quite concerning things from some of our boys in school. A name keeps popping up. You'll probably guess who that name generally is. So it's like, oh, we're hearing this Andrew Tate guy, you know, who is he? You know, some of the boys are sort of mimicking some of the things that this person's saying, and we're a little bit concerned. Would you be happy to come in and talk to some of our lads? Up until this point, all of my work was with different ages and mixed groups, like mixed gendered sessions. But can you come work with some of our boys about this sort of like part of their life, online culture and online influence? They thought at the time it was just like this one person that we need to tackle, but it was more than that, obviously. Which I did. I went into some schools and started to have conversations with boys around you know what they were looking at online, people like Andrew Tate. But that basically pulled back a curtain to actually there's a lot more going on with these boys. There was a reason why lots of them were gravitating to some of these messages, and it was through the conversations I was having with them that made me realise, oh, actually, there's a little bit more going on here. You know, I've gone in to talk about Andrew Tate, for example, and helping them think critically about the kind of content they're seeing or being exposed to online. But I came away from them conversations thinking, actually, boys need a little bit more help and support in these areas. And it was because of that they were getting pushed towards this content, you know, they had low self-worth, they thought they were quite often seen as the problem, no one really cared about them, they felt they get treated differently to girls in some aspects of their life, and so on and so on. And, you know, when you start to look at it and think about then, you know, again, for me, it was been an educational process looking at then some of the issues that boys are facing, underachieving compared to girls in school, academically, less likely to go on to college, university, dominating statistics in regards to unemployment, you know, drugs, alcohol, addiction, male suicide rates, all of this was like, oh, okay. I actually there's a lot more going on. So I then developed a program called Boys to Men. And that's sort of bringing us up into like real time now. I developed a program called Boys to Men that allowed us to support boys and young men in all of these areas of their life. Still looking, obviously, at one aspect is the online world, but looking at everything else. So that program we deliver in primary school, we deliver in secondary school, we also deliver it to older young adults in higher education and other settings. Uh, I still do all the original work in regards to bullying, friendship, and relationships and the online world. But yeah, a lot of my work now is targeted to boys specifically. So, yeah, that's like 25 years in five minutes.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

It's a great whistle stop tour, mate. Before we dive into Boys to Men and all the work you do here, I just want to go back to those social media workshops because in today's age, cancel culture is still a huge problem in various aspects of life. And our capacity as a society for forgiveness and redemption, I think has gone down massively. And these lads, I think, must find it absolutely terrifying to make mistakes online now. You know, everyone of my generation looks back at those old Facebook statuses and posted song lyrics and all this rubbish, right? But we never got cancelled for it at that age. And I recently read The Cancelling of the American Mind by Greg Lukianoff and Ricky Slot, absolutely amazing book. And as it lays out in kind of horrifying detail, stupid tweets, videos, insta stories, Snapchats, that kids make as literal children can stay with them their whole lives. It can make them not get into certain universities, it can get them turned down for jobs because they've gone viral or they can be picked up by someone and sent to someone, you know, even in regards to say relationships, you know, Avenge for Lex, for example. How do you give these kids the right education and awareness that isn't just stay off social media completely? We're seeing a lot of that at the moment. We're seeing calls for potential, bans, etc. I will not put my opinion on that. We both know that isn't realistic.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just a few points that you mentioned. We're talking about kids here. And kids are kids. Kids are gonna make mistakes. I've made tons. I'm a lot older than you, and so I'm gonna guess you've probably made loads as well. Kids are kids, and you know, kids, they live in the moment. They're thinking, do now worry about later, or not even worry about it later. If it makes me worry later, I'll deal with it to them. They're living in the moment, and that's what being a young person is all about. The problem is that the online world, as you said, it's an unforgiving place to make mistakes. And, you know, we've heard all the stories, you know, what you put online today that can come back and halt you in like 10, 20, in the future years' time. So when I work with young people, it's definitely not, you know, don't go on social media. Like I said, I work with children of all ages. I'm working with children in primary school that are eight, nine, ten. They're on social media already. Even though, you know, they're 13 plus most of these apps, that doesn't translate in lots of homes. You know, they're on these platforms. It's not my choice to say no. I can't tell them what to do. That doesn't work. Saying, well, you're too young, you shouldn't do that, that's pointless. Because someone, in many cases, their parents and carers are giving them permission to use these platforms. They're on TikTok, Snapchat, you know, you name it. And obviously, as they move through primary into secondary school, their online life grows as well. So, what we do when we talk to young people about the online world is it's all about critical thinking. It's all about giving them guidance and direction of how they use the online world. So, talking about things like their digital footprint or digital tattoo and helping them realize that the online world is here and it's great, it's fun. But when you communicate, when you share, when you upload, you know, that's out there. And that can be seen, screenshots saved, reshared, reposted, and that's tied into you. That's connected to you for maybe forever. So it's all about helping them build critical thinking skills, going through processes and stories and scenarios in regards to oh, what could happen if you did this or sharing stories of other people's situations they've got themselves into, trying to get them to think about what they do before they do it. The problem is with young children and young people, you know, certainly even in the early teenage years, at that point, they haven't got the critical thinking skills. They haven't got the emotional literacy to always think about what they're doing now, how it can impact them. So they're a victim of their age. You know, all the people around them want them to be perfect. Their parents may say, you know, don't do anything stupid. Teachers may say, you don't do this, don't do that. But that's almost impossible. So when I work with them, I'm going in with it with that approach. Look, we're not expecting you to be perfect. We know you're gonna make mistakes, but these are some things that will hopefully help you think about having a healthy presence online. And, you know, no one's gonna persecute you for making a mistake, but it's about looking at what you're doing. It may be go back in your feed and maybe get rid of some of the negative stuff. Or you may not be able to drown it out with positive things. As in, you've made a mistake online and you posted that video or joke that it's a little bit inappropriate or offensive, and you can't get rid of it because it's out there, drown it out with positive stuff. You know, make sure from now on the things that you are putting online are showing you in as you as a true person, you know, the positive sides of your life. And most people, I think, if they're going to look at things critically, will get that. So, okay, that was a silly mistake that you made loads of times. But, you know, look at this person now. And we all change. And it's helping young people understand that, you know, no one's expecting you to be perfect. But if we can start to implement these little things now, we can start to build a positive presence online.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Let's dive into the work you do with boys to men. And I know that your SEO is not going to be helped by the fact that there's a very, very famous US iconic 90s RB act of the same name. But you said to me off air, mate, you want to help boys become a complete young man. What does that mean in reality and how do you do it?

SPEAKER_02 18:03

So the work we do with boys, it's definitely not teaching them how to be a man. One thing that comes up in our workshops, and again, it's different ages. There isn't one way to be a man. What we try to do with boys is we try to help them think about what kind of men they want to become, what kind of men they want to be. Now, lots of them to start off with have this mindset that's very stereotypical, the archetype version of being a man, you've got to be big, you've got to be strong, you've got to be tough and brave, that type of thing. It's very, very common. But that's always their first thoughts. My job when I work with young people is to get them to think about who they want to be, who they are, and help them understand that there isn't one way. There's nothing wrong with being big and strong, but you can also be soft and sensitive. And in fact, you could be both at the same time. So when I talk about being like a complete man, what we try to do with boys is our work with boys is really split into two halves. And if we're going to fast forward time and we're looking at young people that are developing into young adults, all the people around them, their parents, the people that have educated them, the people that have support them, love them, and care for them, ultimately our goal is that we can create young adults that are happy, that are secure, that are having positive friendships and healthy relationships. That's the ultimate goal that we want. Ticking all them boxes. They're living a fulfilled life with purpose. Now, the only way that we get that is that we start off helping them understand who they are. We want to make young people feel comfortable in their own skin. So when I talk about being a complete person, that's where we start our work. It's giving them the freedom to think about who they are, who they want to be, giving them the opportunity to face the things that they worry about, the things that they are insecure about, the things that they try to hide from themselves or their peers or people around them. And building that emotional literacy with them, giving them an opportunity to actually think about the things that are impacting them. And that could be facing things that they may never have faced before. Again, facing their insecurities, facing the things that they try to hide and they try to block out, giving them that freedom to think, no, it's okay to have all these things. And our program takes them through this journey to do that. We talk about them, we talk about the things they like, we talk about the things they find difficult, we talk about emotions, we talk about their insecurities, we talk about how stereotypes have a societal impact on their lives, all of these things to build their emotional literacy in regards to who they are and where they're going in life. Once we've done that, we then start to focus on the people around them. So other people. The first works about them, second, it's about other people. So that's when we delve into the kind of content they're seeing on the internet. Who you're watching online, how's that impacting you? How's that impacting you as a person? How's that helpful? How's that damaging? Can we build critical thinking skills to process what we see? We talk about how they interact with each other, their peers. So that brings into conversation things like banter and the impact of our words. And again, thinking about actually the things that we say around people, that all has an impact on us, what people think about us, the potential damaging impact of some of the jokes that we may make, whether it's appropriate or inappropriate. We talk about how they communicate with girls, and you know, again, that brings into lots of conversations about allyship and sexual harassment, and we talk about. Their place in the world. And it's all about building up self-worth, building up confidence, helping them understand that you have a really important role within society. We need mal role models, and you can be our future ones. And when we talk about being complete, it's about understanding themselves, stripping away some of the things that they may struggle with so they can go off and then have these healthy relationships with other people. And that's really hard to do if they're not happy with themselves. You may have heard the saying, Freddie, hurt people hurt. And I use that saying all the time when I'm working with professionals. And what I mean by that is you can't expect a young person to have healthy futures and healthy relationships and healthy friendships and have motivation to succeed if they're not happy with themselves. They're insecure about something, or they're hiding something, or they're not happy, or they're having struggles in their life. So we start with them first and building up them emotional skills that then can translate into other people.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

It's really interesting you said purpose there. And I often say on this podcast that the three pillars a young boy needs to thrive as a man is purpose, identity, and belonging. And wrapped around all of that, I think is respect from other men and self-respect of themselves. I also often say that the route to emotional stability and a feeling of being comfortable in your masculinity is learning principles like self-awareness, ownership or personal responsibility, however you want to call it, and self-worth. And just finally, as well, I proposed this point to a previous guest called Georgie, and I said that one of the most important things for men is for us to harness our sexual desire. And for women, is it to harness their sexual power? How would you respond to all of that?

SPEAKER_02 24:02

The first part, absolutely, identity, purpose. This is what our work is all about. It's about building them up because lots of young boys, they don't feel that have a purpose or an identity or belonging. Yeah, so that's the community part. And they're the things we're trying to tackle with them, and we're trying to give them the skills to gain them. So again, identity, giving them the freedom to think about who they want to be. And even if they don't fit that stereotypical version of what they may think, that's fine. There isn't one way to be a man. And again, we have like fun activities and different ways to explore that with them. So by the end of our session, we work out that there's hundreds, thousands, millions, and billions of ways of being a man. Really, it's about what kind of man you want to be. And that's what we always start with. And then we'll look at their qualities again, how they gain these things. So looking at, you mentioned like respect and things like that, looking at their inner qualities, looking at their values, looking at, okay, what's going to shape and define you as a person? Well, actually, when they start, it's all like, I've got big muscles and I've got to be big and strong. That's not going to define you. That's just going to show what you look like. What's going to define you are the things that are inside of you right now. And that's where that purpose comes in. We want to lift them out of you. It's your ability to be compassionate. It's about your ability to be respectful. It's about your ability to be caring and loving. They are all amazing qualities of being a man, masculine qualities, which quite often for boys, it's like, well, no, that's not masculine at all. And it's to help them understand that they're the things inside you that's going to define you as a person. It's not always what you look like or how big your muscles are or how tall you are. That's just physical features. As a person, if you want to have successful relationships and healthy friendships, they're them qualities that we want to get out of you. They're the qualities that we want to harness your ability to be a good person and how that translates in your interactions. So it's all about lifting them up and understanding that that's going to build your community. That's going to allow you to find your purpose and belonging because that's going to help people gravitate towards you. And that could be from a very young age how you're going to breed friendship and how you're going to have healthy friendships. That could be as they move through, you know, teenage years, that could help you get a girlfriend and be attractive to the opposite sex. And again, it's not all about what you look like. It's are you a kind, sensitive person? Are you in touch with your own emotions? And then, you know, moving forward, that will help you in other areas of your life. And that could be sex and relationships and stuff like that. It's all about this emotional literacy. It's all about helping them understand what's quite often on the inside already, but they find it hard to discover it. Our job when I work with them is to help them discover it.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

I want to talk now about how the mainstream, I'm using air quotes there, talks about men and boys, or should I say more realistically, talks at them, in my opinion. And we've seen a lot of mainstream content dramatizing or portraying the issue around young boys. The most famous example is Netflix's adolescence. Now, I'm speaking from an uninformed position here because I can't really bring myself to watch it for many reasons. I don't like the messaging that it's had, I don't like the impact that it's had, to be honest. And that's just my opinion. But I obviously can't speak too much on it because I haven't watched it. But if you've watched it, what was your view on it? How do you think the conversation is right now around men and boys, terms like toxic masculinity, which I disagree with vehemently on? The conversation around incels is very uninformed. I've had experts like William Costello on five years ago, six years ago, talking about it. I'm his pod dad, really, because now he's on massive podcasts. And then the conversation around things like consent and sexual violence. You know, there's advertisements in London about things like staring now being an offence. What message does that send to young boys and especially young boys like me on the spectrum?

SPEAKER_02 28:24

So let's unpick some of the things you said. So we'll start off with Adolescence, and you may need to remind me as we go. So I have watched Adolescence. I watched it when it came out, and I've got two things to share about that. So originally, when I watched it, as in I didn't see the aftermath when I went on social media a few days later. I watched it, first of all, I enjoyed it. Because when I watched it, I was watching it as a drama. There was a drama, the way it was shot, this like one take. You've probably heard like it's shot in one take each scene, each episode. It was powerful. It was filmed really well, and I have a creative background myself. So for that aspect, I loved it. I loved it. The acting was amazing. All of that was great. And when I watched it, I enjoyed that aspect of it, seeing it as a drama. I also thought, wow, this is going to be, hopefully, and I was wrong, this could be an amazing opportunity to shine a light on boys and young people and some of the struggles they are facing. Now, lots of the things in that show were completely off, you know, links to, like someone mentioned Andrew Tate, and that means that if you like Andrew Tate, you're an incel.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Or one working class boy, and that's not the case, really. It's black and Asian boys who are more susceptible to being his audience. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

And when you start, you know, like William Costello, when you actually start to look at these sort of like, you know, the research around incel culture, they're not the people following Andrew Tate. They are, if anything, you know, he's what they're not. He may be what they were trying to be. And the links they made, you know, using terms like incel and oh, that means you're going to go off and and violently attack women. You know, incels, as you know, you know, you've had William on your show, they're more at risk for themselves than anyone else, you know. And when you start to look at sort of suicide rates and suicide ideas, all of these things, that's a completely different story. And that obviously wasn't highlighted.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

No, all the proportion of them who are sexual abuse survivors, domestic abuse survivors, spectrum, everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Hurt people, hurt, and yeah, let absolutely high numbers in regards to autistic community and stuff, all of this that wasn't shown in the series. But I watched it with okay, at least this, because I watched it, I've been working with boys for years before that. So I watched that, wow, this is like something that's mainstream. This is gonna shine a light on some of the things that I'm talking about with boys in schools, and this could be a good opportunity to make people actually, you know. I'm working in this space, and it's loads of other great people working in this space, but it wasn't mainstream. And I thought this could be a great opportunity to actually, oh, there's a little bit more going on here. What do we need to look at? Unfortunately, that didn't happen. It was taken on board, it was suddenly like the prime minister's talking about all this. Oh, we've got to stop misogyny, we've got to stop boys. You know, the direction it went off was totally wrong. And suddenly everyone came out of the woodwork in, oh, this is what we've got to do. You know, we need to tell boys this, we need to stop misogyny. That isn't the approach. Nothing was about, oh, right, okay, so what do boys need? What's going on here? Let's have a chat with young people, let's talk to boys, let's find out what they think about all this stuff, let's have a conversation. I'm doing that daily in schools, but no one's not hard, is it? Exactly. And that's where you said on like, you know, telling boys what to be, what they shouldn't be. That just isn't the approach at all. And then throwing into the mix of headlines, we've got a stamp out misogyny, toxic masculinity is taking over. And again, I hate that term, as you mentioned as well, for many reasons. I've hated it from day one, again, way before adolescence, way before the headlines that we've seen. And going back to them conversations with boys like four years ago, five years ago now, just coming out of lockdown. I mean, God, we're in 26 now, so that's ages ago. They were the things that came up when I was talking to boys, you know, what are some of your issues? And they would say that then, years ago, like, well, you know, it's very unusual that you'll hear the term masculinity without the word toxic in front of it. And does that mean that we're bad or poisonous or toxic? And their perception, you know, that's why they would be like putty in people like Andrew Tate's hands, because that's playing into what his narrative is. And, you know, it gives that perception that it's toxic to be a man. Masculinity in itself is toxic or harmful, and that's the starting point, that's the narrative.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

So just as well, mate, sorry to cut you as well. What I also hear is like when people try and defend the term, they say, Well, it doesn't mean that, it means this. And I say, Well, this is the message boys are hearing. So either you're saying they're wrong or you're saying well, or you're saying they're wrong, basically. So then what that message does that send? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Unless you have an opportunity to talk to them, you can't say it. It's not like that, it's something else. Because I know because I work with boys that the way they digest and process these words, they're not going to analyze it. They're just, oh well, everyone hates us. We're all bad. That's it. That's their point. And now, for educators, teachers, anyone that's around them, kids don't want to be told that they're bad when they're not. And already you've got this massive brick wall being put in front of them where you can't progress. My job is to rip that wall down and say, look, I don't think you're that. I think you're amazing. I think you have an amazing opportunity to be amazing young people. And I hate that term as well. Masculinity is amazing and it's has so many different forms. And being toxic isn't one of them. When I talk to boys about this stuff, look, we all know there is toxic behaviour. Yes. There are toxic people, there are toxic opinions, there are toxic values. That's a different conversation, but they're not the headlines. It's not, oh look, toxic behaviour by this person, or toxic values or opinions by this, this, or this. And that could be male or female.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Isn't that the black toxic traits that are more male typical or female typical? That never gets set, does it? No. Because it's not black and white.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

It's not black and white. When I work with boys, it's like that's what we try to like, you know. Look, I get it. I totally understand that it wasn't something when I was young, that term I never heard. I never heard toxic masculinity. But these boys are hearing it on social media. Turn on the TV, you know, morning TV while you're getting ready for school or you're getting ready for work. That's the slogan. Toxic masculinity, rise of misogyny. We've got to stamp this out. We've got to have lessons to tell boys what they should or shouldn't do. How are you going to? I mean, I can feel myself getting frustrated and annoyed here. How are you going to support a young person and help them have a fulfilled life if already you are labelling them and painting them with this broad brush of you are bad and we need to fix you? You are not bad and we don't need to fix you. The messaging around it is bad. What we need to do with you is we need to help you decide who you want to be and understand that you're amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

And if we just flip that as well, mate, say for example, you started using a term like toxic femininity and we applied it to the way that girls bully each other stereotypically, right? If we started plastering that term over the conversation, over the media, and then said, well, we've got to tell girls how to be nice to each other, we've got to tell girls how to tackle toxic femininity, do you think girls would listen to that? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Definitely not. I mean, this is the thing. When you start to look at these like flip sides and arguments, and I personally, you know, for me, my passion is supporting young people. I don't just work with boys, I work with young girls as well. And I know that young girls, just like young boys, they all have their individual issues, worries, concerns. They may be slightly different in certain areas, but there's lots of crossover. So for me personally, I try not to get into these conversations of like, you know, what about boys? What about girls? I'm just thinking like these young people, they all need help, love, and support. And that will be different depending on who they are and their background, their gender, their identity, their own struggles. Are they neurotypical, neurodiverse? You fill in the blank. They all need love, care, and attention. And these headlines, by the way, do not help women either. Because again, you've got young girls in school that they are then got this perception that boys may be bad or harmful.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

And then boys will never approach them again.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

And they don't. Yeah, these are the things that come up in our session. You know, it's a really great thing that we do with them. And it's right near the start of our work. I asked them two questions. It's built into these two things. What are the best bits and the hardest bits about being a boy or a man? Now, depending on their age, young boys, like if it's a primary school, they haven't got that lived experience yet. So it's all about what they think is to come. Yes. But it's it's it's fun, you know. Oh, I think the best bits about being a man is like you get to drive a car and you get to have a girlfriend and you get to earn money, and your parents can't tell you to get a fortnight, that type of thing. It's all like, you know, and when I'm working with boys that are that little bit older, that have got a little bit more of lived experience, again, they'll they'll have their own views. And we always talk about the bits they like or they think are to come. And the reason why that's important, it gets them talking about their lives, it gets them talking about what they enjoy, which is a really easy conversation, but it also allows us to address the opposite, like, okay, what's quite difficult? It's not the best and worst bits, because again, we're not promoting worst bits, but we're unpacking what they think are quite difficult. And I'll say to them, what do you think is quite hard about being a boy? So depending on their age, it could be like, what have you found difficult now? So they may say things like, Well, we get treated differently than girls in schools, or we have less opportunities with certain clubs and activities because there's loads of girl spaces, but there isn't for boys. So they'll say all things like that, and you know, again, we'll talk about it. But then when you start to think about, especially for the older lads, when you start to think about what may be hard to come, that rejection always comes into the conversation. Not just rejection, in fact, it's being accused or being labelled of like, what if someone sexual harassment allegation or you know, these types of things? What if we get labelled a sex pest because we approached a girl? And you know, so these are things that they're fearful of happening. That's reinforced by these messages they see. You know, women have problems, men are problems, or girls have problems, boys are problems. That's narrative that's quite often, not everywhere, obviously, but they're the things they're seeing. And terms like toxic masculinity, and when you see headlines like, oh, well, schools have got to stamp this out and tell boys, show them how to respect women. What all young people need is to, again, like I said earlier, is about understanding their inequalities and their values and how they build healthy friendships and positive relationships. That's for everyone. That's not like, well, no, we got to tell boys. No, it's not that. It's like we need to educate young people on how they can have positive, safe, and respectful interactions with each other. But these terms and labels and these sort of messages, they shut all that down. And it's it's really frustrating and it's actually upsetting when you talk to boys about it. And it's like, wow, are you really concerned about that? A 14-year-old boy that's saying, like, what if I get accused of being a sex pest or whatever terminology they use?

SPEAKER_01 40:12

It's very sad, man.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

It is, you know, are you just saying that? It's like, no, that is a concern of mine. The bad thing is you hear it. I always like trying to spin a positive angle. It's like, okay, well, I'm here today or for the next few days. Let's talk about that and let's actually take a little bit of that pressure and weight off of your shoulders and let's think about this. So that's why it's important to have these conversations. But they don't exist if people like myself and others that are going into school having these conversations. It doesn't happen otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Before we move on to the work that you do in football clubs as well, mate, because that's a brilliant part of your program too. Trust is another massive part of the mental health conversation for men. And I've often said on this podcast that trust levels for men and boys need to be far higher on average for disclosure than women. And then there's many reasons for that. Now, if they're high for men, they've got to be even higher for boys, right? And I've been hugely privileged in my work at Vent and the podcast, both online and privately, that men have felt they can come to me and talk to me. Sometimes they overshare, and that's something that I've got to deal with. But it's a privilege to be able to do this, right? And I imagine when you talk to these boys, you know, when they're in a group setting, they're very different. When they're in one-to-ones, they're very different. But when you're in a group setting and you can allow them the space around each other and you see those masks fully come off and they trust you. A, how powerful is that for you? And B, what are some of the most powerful things you've heard from them? Maybe that might even surprise my listeners to hear.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

So, yeah, it's like you said, that trust word, that is key. And that's my job as a facilitator. Is that my job is to gain trust as quick as I can with the boys. You know, I walk into a school. Let's imagine I'm I'm going into a secondary school and I'm I don't do one-to-one work. And the only reason I don't do one-to-one work is because one-to-one work means, in my mind, that's like that's something that needs to be done over time. You know, for children that need that really one-to-one mentorship and support, that has to happen over a long time. My work's group work, and that's for a couple of reasons. One, because my job when I work with boys is to get them communicating with each other, is to get them talking with each other and to feel safe and building trust to do that. Because if I say to a young lad, look, it's okay to be worried or scared, or it's okay to be insecure, that's an important message for a young boy to hear from an old person like myself. But my job really is to make them feel comfortable to share that stuff with each other. For example, having a 14 or 15-year-old boy, say in a group of other 14, 15-year-old boys that they see every day, like some of them are in their own peer groups. I worry about that. I'm insecure about that. And again, it's like taking that mask off and showing their true thoughts and feelings. That's extremely powerful because boys relate to that. It's like, oh, right, okay. So it's safe for me to do that as well. Because lots of boys, they're going through their journey, they're thinking for all the things that they're carrying around with them, all the weight that's on them, they quite often think that they're the only ones. Like everyone else seems like they've got it all going on. They're all okay, but they're not. All men are insecure about something. So my job is to unpack that. And if I can get boys to share this stuff with each other, that's really powerful because it makes them feel like, oh, right, okay, I'm not the only one. But to do that, again, I've got to build trust. And the way that I do that, it's all about being curious with them. It's all about being open and positive and giving them an opportunity to feel safe to talk to them. So, for example, I walk into a room. It's usually fairly small groups, like 12, 15 boys. They're in a room. They've had a little bit of a brief of what this is all about. They're going to spend the next few days with me, but they don't really know. So they're all like sitting there, arms crossed, like, what's all this about? What was going on? They don't really want to talk, they don't really want to share. And my job is to make them feel comfortable to do all the things that we're going to do over the next few days. All the different subjects and topics we're going to cover. And again, lots of that is like self-work, looking at themselves. So when I work with them, I make it really clear that this isn't a lesson, this isn't a test, there's no right or wrong answers. Like, forget about school. We're in school, most of the time, anyway. We're in school, but this is all about you. And this is to give you an opportunity to think about your lives and stuff like that. And for us to do that, what I want from you is I want you to educate me. I want to learn from you. I want you to tell me about your lives. So I'm curious with that. I'm like, tell me about your life. What you like, what don't you like, what you're into, what your hobbies, what your interests, getting them to feel like, oh, right, okay, well, this guy's not here just to tell us what to do. Because sometimes boys think that. And that way I can get them to feel comfortable. We share, we chat, I talk about my journey, I talk about my life, they talk about theirs. And it's all about building trust. Like this is a safe environment to feel heard and feel seen, which is the things that boys used to say ages ago. Like that's the problem. No one sees us, no one hears us, we're invisible. So again, it's about me bripping that wall away. So that doesn't exist in this room. I want to see you, I want to hear you. And once you get them boys feeling safe to do that, you then start to hear the things that they are worried about. So, for example, through the conversations with them, when it's safe to do so, they will start to share about their insecurities, their worries. That could be that they're neurodiverse and that's something that was concerning them. They're autistic or that they've got ADHD, and that's a concern. It could be that they're insecure about their bodies. Body image always comes up, by the way, quite a lot. We're insecure about how we look. We're worried about getting girlfriends and am I going to be successful or am I going to provide to be able to support a family? Also, things that come out in regards to the things that they're dealing with outside of school. So, one recent thing that came out was a boy. This was actually in a primary school, believe it or not. We're talking about emotions and things like that. And it's all about building emotional literacy. And we got into the subject of like, you know, the saying that boys don't cry. Talking about being upset and stuff like that. It's just like humanising these things. Like we all have emotions. Men have them, as women have them, all humans have them. And one lad, we would talk about crying, and and you know, I say, like, oh, stand up if you've ever cried before, you know, sit back down if you've cried in the last month. And we get them to sort of like feel comfortable. And one lad said, When I cry at home, my dad says, Shut up, you're gay. And I'm like, What was that? You know, it did just come out of it. And he said, Yeah, dad said that if I cry, he calls me gay. And he said, like, that's what girls do or gay people do. And that immediately was like so sad to hear. But again, we get to talk about it. And it's not just me talking about it, we get his friends to talk about it as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

That's the most important thing, innit? His friends to challenge it.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

That's what I was saying about earlier. My job as a facilitator is walking through them, get these boys chatting about their life, and sometimes take a step back. What do you think? What do you think? And they're bouncing backwards and forwards because then all their mates are, what really? That's not gay at all. And again, I'm not there to like demonize parents. Inside, I'm thinking, like, obviously, feel really bad for this person, and I'd like to challenge it. But you know, my job is not to do that because obviously this person's going to go home to his dad. He's probably just messing around. It's not really appropriate to say, but you know, it doesn't mean you're gay, and he probably doesn't understand the impact of what that's having on you. Then the lads are saying, Well, that's definitely not gay. And then we talk about being gay, you know, so it opens up other conversations about it. But they're the sort of things like that quite often come up is that they're revealing their deepest fears and insecurities. And again, it could be, like I said, body image or worrying about their future, how they're going to be successful, are they going to be able to support a family? Lots of boys feel that they have to play that brethren a role. There's so much going on. But it's about building trust that we can talk about this stuff, and then we can unpick it with them. And we can, again, try to take some of that pressure away from them.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

I'm conscious of time, so let's briefly talk about the amazing work you also do in football academies in professional football clubs. And there are lots of similar problems that all of these young boys in those clubs will face to boys who aren't in them, right? But they're also different problems. And we spoke about male sex drive earlier, and when these boys go from well, some of them anyway, go from zero to a hundred status-wise, that is massive. The attention they get from girls is supercharged. A lot of the no's they were getting turn into yeses and pretty easy yeses too. That can derail many men, let alone kids, right? You also have to deal with the fact that many people will see them as a cash cow. Agents, managers, chairmen, chairwomen, even parents, a lot of parents. And several former professional players, including the likes of Danny Murphy, recently spoke about being financially abused as men, let alone kids, right? So how do you give these boys the tools and the self-confidence to navigate all of these forces and also prevent any people pleasing from occurring too?

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Again, it's sort of a mention earlier, all of this comes down to critical thinking. It's giving them an opportunity to think, to forward think, to evaluate, to challenge, to process where they are, what they're doing, and who they are in their life. That goes back to like looking at, again, their qualities, their values, what makes them a man. And like lots of the things you said, like especially people that are in that more professional role, they're under the spotlight a little bit more. They're definitely held more responsible for every single thing they do. They're under a spotlight. That goes with their social media life, the interactions that they're having with women and girls. It's all based on conversation, talking through scenarios, talking through experiences, talking about other people's misfortunes in some cases. And it's all to do with building their critical thinking skills and ability. It's just all conversation. It sounds basic, but it's it's simple in its approach. It's just conversation. It's just talking about where they are, the pressures that they feel that they are facing now, or they may feel to come as they go up, you know, they move through, like maybe if it's in the club, that's a big one as well. Talking about failure, that's a massive one. Talking about being resilient, talking about failure. And again, with certainly with football culture, ironically, I'm doing a lot of work with football players at the moment. I don't follow football, I'm not into football, I've never played football in my life. I don't know, players. It does. It's a little bit of a joke. It's like, like, look, guys, I don't know any names. I don't know who you are. That's always quite ironic. But it's about lots and lots of players I'm working with, you know, they're going through the academy process. Well, the dropout rate is huge.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

So we're getting 01% something of players who make it professionally, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

So it's talking about all this stuff. It's talking about, like, we don't know that of what's going to happen in the future, but it's talking about, you know, what happens when you reach that level, and you know, how's that going to impact you? What kind of pressures are you going to deal with? Almost like that thing I said earlier that the best bits and the hardest bits, what's to come? We can talk about it. Or what happens if you don't make it? How's that going to impact you? How's that going to impact your mental health? How's that going to impact you, like, you know, the failure aspect, you know, failure to succeed? What's your backup plan? Have you got one? These types of things. And it's just all about exploring all of these aspects of their life. None of it is ever to do with telling them how to think, telling them what to do, telling them what not to do. None of that works. That is all ineffective. That shuts the room down for conversation. That trust immediately dissolves. So it's not about that. It's just, you know, having conversations about it. Conversations about different scenarios, different things that could happen. And obviously drawing from their life experience at that point. And again, sharing, talking. One person may say something, or what do you guys think about that? Oh, well, actually, that's happened to me. And again, it's all about just opening up their emotional literacy, their forward thinking, their critical thinking skills. And that all just comes from conversation about all areas of their life.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Let's reflect now on your amazing professional journey, mate. So, first of all, what's been your proudest achievement on it so far?

SPEAKER_02 53:41

So I've got two things I'm going to share right now. I'm going to split this into two categories: positive and negative, but proud for both of them. So the positive side is when I work with young people, like some schools and communities I work with, I work with yearly. So I may work with young people as they go through their educational journey. So for me, the proudest moment is when I see young people really develop, when I see them start to thrive, build confidence, like the conversations I have with, especially boys, quite often after asked programs, like, you know, that's changed my life. It could be an email from a parent, it could be an email from a school saying, you've actually changed that person's life because they've said so. The conversations that you've allowed them to have and the way you've helped them think about things, it's had a real, real positive impact on them. So that's the ultimate goal. Having a young person, having a parent or having a teacher contact me afterwards, say, like, just want to say that your work has had a life-changing impact on that person. They now know who they are. We're seeing it in school. So all of these positive things are amazing. And I hear that fortunately quite often. And the other one, it's again, it starts from a real negative place. I always find the positives. One thing that quite often happens in my work as well, certainly depending on the subject matter, is I have a lot of disclosures. So, for example, I do a lot of work with young people, again, focused on the online world, looking at things like exploitation. Yeah, sextortion. Yeah, yeah. Sextortion. And unfortunately, this has happened quite a few times, a few quite recently, where I've had young people come to me after my sessions and say, I'm being exploited. That thing we've been speaking about, that's happening to me right now. And to put that in a little bit of context, the last time this happened, it was a 14-year-old girl come forward to me and she said, Oh, that thing we were talking about, that's going on with me right now. And it turned out that she met someone online. This person talked her into thinking that she was in a relationship with them. He talked her into sharing an indecent image of herself. And then again, the sex torsion element came into play and basically said, if you don't send a picture of yourself to me every single day before you go to school, I'm going to share this image publicly and everything else. And through the conversation I had with her, it'd been happening for eight months. Wow. Now, if if I wasn't in that school that day or didn't go to that school, there's two things that could possibly happen. One, it could still be happening now, or two, that person could have led to taking their own life. We hear these things all the time. And it was through my work, my conversation, my trust that I built within an hour's presentation, basically, and that was it. This was with like with 150 kids in the room. You know, it wasn't even a small group. But it's my way that I delivered that session and the trust that I built with them to say, look, this stuff happens. And if it does happen, you are not going to be victimized, you are not going to be in trouble. We need to help you. And if there's anyone sitting in this room today that's concerned or worried about you or a friend, like use today as an opportunity to speak out. This young girl did. And through the conversation I had with her, you'd think, like, what's going on at home? All this stuff. She had loving parents, she had supportive family, she knew she had support at school, but she didn't come forward because she thought, one, she'd be in trouble, two, she thought she'd be arrested. Guilt.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Well, we talked about this in school. They said if you share images, you get arrested. So she thought the police would come to school. She thought her parents would say, like, oh, well, that's it. You're not going on the internet anymore. We'll take everything away. These are things that young people are fearful of. And it was only me that stood up in her school for an hour that gave her the strength to come forward and say, Rick, can I have a chat with you? And, you know, that day she got help. That ended that day. Obviously, it was processed the correct way. The school got involved, the parents were notified, the police got involved, and it ended. It didn't happen anymore. That was the last day she had to share an image of herself. But it was me that allowed her to do that. So that's a real upsetting, you know. Half an hour later, I'm in the car crying over it. So it's really hard to process. But again, how positive is that? That, and this has happened more than once, unfortunately. Different things, different subject matters. That's a real motivation and drive for my work. It's like I get the opportunity not only to make people feel like that's changed my life in a real positive way, but at the same time, I'm potentially saving them as well. So yeah, it's horrible to hear them things, but like I said, if I wasn't there that day, who knows where that girl would be today? And if I never went to that school, there's thousands of young people out there that are experiencing this right now. And it's all about having the opportunity to have them safe people around them that are going to gain that trust and that are going to make them feel comfortable. We all assume that why don't they go to mum and dad? Why don't they go to a teacher at school? They've all told to, but again, they don't feel safe to do so. So anyone working in the space with young people, that is so important. They know that you're safe. And that all again, it all comes from there's no judgment. We're not here to tell you what not to do and don't make stupid mistakes because if you do, you'd be persecuted. It's all about talking to them on their level. That's powerful.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

And as a final question, mate, before we move on, what has this wider journey also taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 59:37

It's taught me empathy. It's taught me to understand that everyone has a backstory. That could be a young person or an adult. You know, we've all been there like in a traffic jam, bibbing at the person in front, or the person in front of us coffee shops taking their time and we're getting frustrated. One thing it's helped me is it's empathy, it's understanding that every human out there has their own different set of circumstances and issues, and they're quite often hidden. So for me, yeah, that's the one thing that I've gained, I think, more than anything, is empathy and compassion for other people. And I think that's made me a far more balanced and kind of human, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

We've talked about your incredible professional journey with Boys to Men with the Stay Safe Initiative, mate. Let's go deeper and talk about your own mental health journey. So I ask all my special guests on this topic this question first. Take me back to early life, teenagers, and looking back, were there any early mental health experiences? If any, who's the Richard? We meet here.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

So, God, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back a few years now. As I said earlier, I'm gonna show my age. So it's a long time since I went to school. I went to school through the 70s and 80s. That is showing my age. So at the time, yeah, my own personal journey as a young person, as a teenager, was I had a great family, I had great support and all that stuff. But when I now reflect on my younger years, there were struggles. I didn't associate them with mental health, probably never even heard that term when I was young. But I'm dyslexic and I didn't know that as a young person, only diagnosed as an adult. That meant my school life was quite a struggle. The classroom was a very confusing place for me. Back in the day where you'd have to come up and write on the blackboard, you know, you'd have to read out in lessons, all of that. Like school was not a positive place for me. I hated the academic side of it. It was a confusing place. And that led my school journey to be quite hard. And the reason why I say that, it was like, you know, for me, I would do anything to get out of a lesson. And that could quite often be me making wrong choices and you know decisions. If I'm naughty, I'll get kicked out, and then I won't have to read in front of the class, that type of thing. So that was quite a struggle for me. Also, as a young person, I would say I was quite shy and introverted. I didn't have tons of confidence. We briefly spoke earlier about the football stuff. I didn't play football, and all of my friends did. So that again, I was rubbish at football, and that's one of the reasons. I was rubbish, mate, but I still enjoyed it, but that's that's always makes it worse. Yeah, I was rubbish, I wasn't really into it. And so, again, like the social aspect of school, like you know, I would be the last one to be picked on the football team and stuff like that. So, yeah, I was quite a shy person. I struggled through the academic side, and that unfortunately led to me making some wrong choices to do whatever I could to get out, and again, putting that performance on of you know, hiding my insecurities by acting out in the wrong way. So that was my journey as a young person. Fortunately for me, as I'm moving into my late teens, early twenties, I discovered martial arts, and that was a turning point. That was a turning point for me because that gave me a massive opportunity to understand who I was and be surrounded by other people that are also on this same journey with me. Different men, it's quite a male-dominated area for me at that time, different ages. So that was my turning point. That really shaped me and defined me as a man, and that took me on a journey of self-discovery and all of them things that we spoke about earlier, you know, helped me build resilience, helped me understand who I was, helped me to drop that mask and performance, drop the ego. One great thing about martial arts is it dissolves the ego quite quickly. Humbles people quickly, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So that humbling journey for me that shaped me as a young man. And fortunately for me, that had an impact on the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

Like you said, you grew up in the 1970s and 80s, a different andromeda, let alone universe for the mental health conversation, right? So, how was your dyslexia handled back then, if it was spotted at all? And second of all, when you were struggling, and I've spoken to many people who've got dyslexia on the podcast, did it make you feel like a failure? Did it make you feel dumb? Or did it make you feel like there was something inherently wrong or broken with you? Or all three?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

All three. So it wasn't picked up, it wasn't diagnosed, it wasn't mentioned, I never heard that word, I wouldn't have understood that word, didn't know what that was. It was never picked up, it was always you're not trying hard enough, you're switching off, you're naughty. And again, like I said, my thought process was, and I see this in all the young boys that I work with, do anything to distract her from what I'm doing, and that could be being rude, whatever. So it was always try harder, you're not working hard enough. It was never spotted. And then obviously from that, it was like, you know, what's wrong with me? Why am I finding this so difficult? And yeah, all them thoughts of failing and stuff like that. One thing that I had in my advantage was I was extremely creative. So, again, lots of dyslexic people are. I was quite creative, so my strengths were art and creative things. So, again, that area of school was really positive for me. And that led me into my early career as a graphic artist. So, for me, even though the academic side of things was really a struggle, it allowed me to harness and focus on the things that I was good at, the creative things and being able to be organized and process things differently to maybe other people. So, again, there's always pros and cons, isn't there? You have what you're lacking in one area, you may have a little bit more of a superpower in other areas. So I didn't know it at the time, but it allowed me to focus on the things that I was good at. You know, I didn't go to college, I didn't go to university, I left school early, I left school before I even taken any GCSEs, and I didn't come away with hardly any qualifications whatsoever. Because again, academically I wasn't there. But fortunately for me, I left school early and got a job, got an apprenticeship, and again, school decided to start to then dissolve. And that was a creative journey for me. And again, that tied in at the same time when I started martial arts.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

When I've spoken to people who've got dyslexia, either in the workplace, on the podcast, or privately, in my research, one thing I found was that many dyslexic people see words as patterns. So when you were becoming a graphic designer, did that part of your brain, and especially the fact that you were now good at something, give you hope?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

Absolutely. I had strengths in other ways. So my early career, like I said, graphic designer, I excelled in that area. I was someone that was really good at organizing. That led me on to sort of management positions in like studio manager. And I that's a word I'm not in anymore. But yeah, so again, it allowed me to succeed and realize, oh, actually, I'm really good at other stuff. I knew I was always good at art because that was my passion at school. So that was the thing I was good at. So I knew I had a skill, but yeah, it allowed me to excel in in other areas. So very, very quickly, it was like, well, I'm I'm not really bothered about that stuff, so I'm really good at this stuff. And that was again, people around me. So I'll get Rich to do that because like he can do that, he can organise. And again, that's helped me in the work that I do now. It's thinking of creative ways to engage with other people. You know, I'm not really good at reading and writing, but I'm good at engaging.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:32

We spoke earlier about those three pillars, right? And respect and self-respect. So with the graphic design, did you get self-respect and respect from others because of this trade that you were now very good at? And then also on the other hand, or I'm hoping that you were good at martial arts, did the fact that you were getting good at martial arts give you not just respect from others, but self-respect too, then also those three pillars of purpose, belonging, and identity that you craved?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

Both. Obviously, excelling at at the time chosen career, that was amazing. That was great. Again, that builds that self-worth. I'm actually really good at something and I've got a career path. That career path completely changed. And again, with the martial arts, exactly the same. I got to a good level, like I said, I've become an instructor and started to teach. That was again a pivotal point for me. My journey was always I got right into martial arts. I did various different forms of martial arts. That was my passion, that was my hobby, that was my interest, but it was always just that. It wasn't a career. Then I started teaching, and then that opened up, oh, actually, I'm going to have an impact on other people. And that again changed my journey. It was like I'm gaining even more now because I'm seeing people improve. And especially for young people, a good martial artist isn't just there to teach how to punch and kick and do techniques. You're also a mentor because, again, lots of the young people that are coming to me, they've got their individual struggles. So that's what created what I do now. It was like, oh, I've got a purpose. I'm helping these young people. I'm not just teaching them techniques and watching them get good and watching them have confidence. I'm helping them in other areas of their life as well. I'm having conversations with them about their day at school today and giving them advice. Approach this tomorrow. You know, life advice. So all of this wrapped up to this like self-worth purpose that I can actually have an impact in other people. And that's what I try and do when I work with boys and young people in schools, is harness that. Like you're not just you, you have a massive place in society. You can have an impact on those around you. And that could just be by having a healthy relationship and being kind and compassionate. That could be enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

Let's reflect now on your mental health journey. So, first of all, mate, similar question as the first topic. What has this mental health journey taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:49

Going back to that question that you mentioned earlier, it's taught me about understanding myself. It's given me the ability to be far more secure in who I am, what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, facing my own insecurities because I'm talking about them with boys all the time. I think just being a bit more of a complete person, and again, that empathy and that understanding other people's struggles as well, it's turned me into a more empathetic and compassionate person. Absolutely. And I don't think that would have happened without my journey and my interactions through my work. Definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

And as a final question, mate, if you could go back and talk to that teenage Richard struggling with his dyslexia, the Rich who would have just discovered martial arts, or the Richard who had just left school wondering what to do with his life, what would you say to him knowing what you do now, if anything at all?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:45

So, first of all, I knowing me then, I wouldn't have listened.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:50

Very common answer in this pod, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

Yeah. But what I am going to share, I'm going to share three things that I share with young people when I work with them. If I had the opportunity to go back and tell myself these three things, that would have really had an impact on me. So when I work with young people, quite often at the end of our programs and sessions, and I do lots of things we spoke earlier, I try to leave them with three things. These are the three things that I wish I'd have heard of a young person. There's three things with three areas. One's about them, one's about other people, and one's about the rest of the world. So I'll share them with you, and this is what I wish someone had shared with me. So the first one was be yourself. Have the confidence and courage and strength to be who you want to be. Don't worry about fitting in. Don't worry about following the crowd. Don't worry about peer pressure. Be yourself. You find that strength to do that, you're going to be a happier person moving forward. That's going to come out in your interactions with others. So be yourself the first one. That's you. Have the strength to do that. Number two, this is other people. Find people you feel comfortable around. Again, you spend lots of time as a young person. I did trying to fit in. Trying to fit in, act in ways that's not really you because you want to get attention, gratification, feeling like you belong to that group. And it's really hard to pull yourself away from the wrong people sometimes. So I always promote to young people, you know, find people that make you feel comfortable. If they don't, and you feel like you are masking and pretending and again performing to them, they're not your tribe. They're not the people that you want to be around. If you can be yourself, again, it ties into the first one. If you can find people that make you feel comfortable with who you are, now we've got a basis for healthy friendships and relationships in the future. And the last one is again helping them feel purpose is remember that the world's a better place with you in it. Young people need to hear that. They need to hear that from the adults around them. They need to hear that from the people they see daily. Because now they start to feel that they are seen, they start to feel that they have a bit of value and a place in the world. And again, all of these things lay this foundation to okay, I am needed, wanted, valued, and I have a purpose. So, yeah, they're the three things. Be yourself, find people you feel comfortable around, and remember the world's a better place with you in it. I wish I heard that a lot when I was young. So do I, mate. It's got me a bit emotional because I needed to hear that third one. It is. And again, that's not for young people. There's not a time when you need to start hearing this stuff. Because what you're doing with your podcast and the work that you do, the world's a better place with you in it. Because you're opening up these conversations to other people. I know the world's a better place with me in it because that story I told you about that 14-year-old girl that spoke to me and asked for help. So that's so important because then you wake up and you think, you're getting me emotional now. We all have a purpose, and the world's a better place with people like us, in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

Our final topic of conversation, Rich, and it's one I try and have with all of my special guests if we have time. It is a general Natter and quickfire chat about our mental health. So, firstly, how was your mental health, mate? Out of ten, uh, I would say probably a three.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

Wow, that's very low. Do I need to do a check-in with you afterwards? No, it's all good, mate. And the reason why I say that is I have three children. And I'm not going to get into the the personal details on here because I know they won't want me to, but I have three children, one of which is is struggling quite significantly at the moment. So you've probably heard the saying, have you got children?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:48

No, mate, no, not yet. No.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:50

So I've heard the saying many times, and it's totally real. You're only as happy as your most unhappiest child. So at the moment, one of my children is is struggling quite significantly with their mental health, which that obviously has an impact on me. So that's the reason.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:05

I'm very sorry to hear that, mate. And we could speak offline if you need any support about that as well, mate. What age were you, mate, when you became self-aware of your mental health and you realized that the feelings you were having weren't physical and they were actually in your mind?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:19

Early 20s when I started martial arts. That was when I started martial arts, and that gave me an opportunity to look inwards, face your insecurities and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

And was it a Eureka moment or a gradual process? Gradual process. Can you tell me about the first conversation you ever had with someone about your mental health? So if you can remember, who was it with? What did you say? And how do you look back on it? Did it feel like the stereotypical big moment and weight have been lifted? Or on the other, something quite easy, natural, and normal to do?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:50

I can't actually remember having a conversation about my mental health with someone. My conversation started when I was working with young people and hearing from their experiences that allowed me to share mine. But it wasn't with, you know, a friend or a family member. It was through my work.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:05

What things do you find in life, mate, if any, that trigger your mental health? So it could be things people say to you, a sound, smell, taste, sensation, or have you not figured all of them out yet?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:16

I'm going to go back to that saying you're only as happy as your most unhappiest child. So for me, very much like family is important to me. You know, I've got three kids, two of them are adults now. But yeah, it's really about them. It's really about the family. If everyone's good, I'm all good.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

And conversely then, what positive tools and methods do you use to improve your mental health or help you feel better? Which ones have worked, maybe which ones that you've tried but haven't?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:41

So work. I've managed to find a work that you hear the same all the time. It's a bit cliche, but find your passion. I'm lucky enough to have found my passion. So I take great passion for the work that I do. Outside work on a personal level, I'm quite into physical fitness. So working out, saunas, ice baths, all of that sort of stuff. That's my time. So yeah, physical exercise and well-being. I'm quite big on all that stuff. So that's my escape. If I don't get a chance to work out for a few days, I start feeling it. And my wife were like, Richard, just go and have a workout for God's sake.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:19

Oh, testify. What is the best book, or as I call it, mental health Bible you've read for your mental health mate? Now it can be mental health related, it can be fiction, it can be non-fiction. And if you can't think of a book, it could be an audiobook, it could be a TV show, any piece of popular culture.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

So don't read books.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:37

Not surprised by that.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:38

Yeah, but I've listened to audiobooks. I'm gonna say podcasts. So I got into listening to podcasts many, many years ago when they weren't really a thing. And that, absolutely, listening to conversations, listening to other people of all different areas, you know, from scientists to comedians to sports people. Yeah, podcasts for me is is my Bible on life, really, is just listening to other people's journeys. Yeah. I'm fascinated by other people's lives. So yeah, I would just say a whole range of podcasts over the last many, many years has, yeah, for me, I'm I'm not really a book person, and I can't really stick to audiobooks that much either. I get a little bit bored with them. So podcasts, hour or two conversations are like spot on for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:21

Amazing. Well, hopefully you check into a few episodes of mine as well as the year.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:25

I will do, don't worry.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:27

If there was a mantra in life, mate, that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

Oh you stuck me now. I don't know. I honestly do not know. Nothing from Wing Chung. Okay, so find the middle road. There we go. That's a good one. Yeah, I like that. Find the middle path, find the middle road. There's never one way. And then quite often when you're looking at all these controversial topics, banning social media, doing this, doing that, whatever you do, it it's usually in the middle somewhere. So yeah, find the centre line, find the middle path. I've got two questions left.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:08

First one is what do you love about yourself? That I'm kind and compassionate. Anything else?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:17

That I work hard and I've got discipline.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:21

And as a final question, mate, given what we've discussed for the last hour and a bit, you can answer it any way you want. What more do you think we have to do to ensure men from all backgrounds, all races, all social classes, all walks of life feel comfortable and safe in opening up about their mental health issues, or just their general mental health, if most importantly, they want to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:45

Talk to them, show an interest, be curious, be open to conversations, look at things in a positive light and ask lots of questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

Mate, that is a brilliant way to end this conversation. Rich, thank you so much for coming on the Just Checking In podcast and talking to me, brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:07

Thanks for having me, mate. It's been amazing. Yeah, love this conversation. Can't wait to listen back to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:16

Well, that's all we've got time for in this episode of the Just Checking In pod. A big thank you to Richard for being my special guest and for letting me check in with him. I'll put some links to where you can find out more about all the brilliant work Boys to Men does and follow them on social media in the show notes. As always, thank you to all the vendors who've tuned into this episode. Remember, if you've liked what you've heard, give it a share on social media by tagging us at venthelpuk or one word. Tell your friends, family or work colleagues about us. If you're feeling generous, please do write us a review and give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to support us further, go to patreon.com slash venthelpuk or make a one-off donation to our PayPal. Both of those links are on our link tree. That's linktr.ee slash vent helpuk. We hope to check in with you again very soon. And remember, guys, it is always okay to vent.