JCIP #343 - Niamh Hughes - Part 2

In Part 2 of journalist Niamh Hughes' journey, we discuss her diagnosis of Congenital Hemiplegia and how she managed it from being a young child, through to adolescence and adulthood.

We explore how her acceptance of it came alongside her acceptance of herself as a person, and so many other challenges.

We also talk about the normalisation of disabilities more widely and what still needs to change going forward to support disabled people, wherever they are on the spectrum and whatever disability they may have, physical or mental.

As always, #itsokaytovent

You can find out more about Niamh's work here.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi Venters, welcome back to another episode of the Just Checking In Podcast. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. In each episode, I check in with a special guest. We have a natta and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. In part two of Neve Hughes's journey, we discuss her diagnosis of congenital hemoplasia, how she dealt with it from being a young child to teenager, adolescence, and young woman and adulthood. We explore how her acceptance of it came alongside her acceptance of herself as a person and the other challenges it has provided her. We also talk about the normalization of disabilities more widely and what still needs to change going forward to support disabled people wherever they are on the spectrum in whatever form and whatever disability they may have, physical or mental. So this is how part two of my conversation with the wonderful and award-winning Neve Hughes went. We've talked about your journalism journey. Let's go a bit deeper and talk about your own mental health journey, Neve. So I ask all my special guests this question first. Tent me back to early life, teenage years. Were there any early mental health experiences? Who's the NiV we meet here?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

So if we're gonna go back to sort of primary school age NiV, I was a really quiet kid. I was really quiet and I liked reading and I liked being on my own. I had a small group of friends. I was that kid who was quite content in their own company, and I was, yeah, just painfully shy. I was the kid who used to get really anxious before going to a birthday party.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

For what reason? Social anxiety. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

I also found, and I still get this now, I get really anxious around people out of context. So seeing work colleagues out in the wild, I and parents' evening. I like I don't like the idea of these two people from two different worlds having any kind of interaction.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

So if you saw a teacher on the high street, you were like, oh no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

I can't handle it. So you don't you don't exist outside that building. No, absolutely not. Go away. This must fit in this box. Even though I am the daughter of teachers, it's like finding out your teacher has a spouse and children and just can't handle it. It's like, no, that's not okay. But I used to get really anxious around parents' evening, not because I was worried about what my teachers were gonna say because I was a stellar student, but it was because I really hated the idea of my parents meeting teachers, the idea of two worlds colliding.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

And seeing and hearing what they thought of you.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, I hated it. I used to feel like physically sick. Wow, as extreme as that. Yeah, I hated it. And seeing my classmates at parties and things, because I don't like big crowds, never have, really don't like them. And so, like if you go to a birthday party and you'd have to fraternize a little bit, and see seeing your friends out of the uniforms and stuff, and it's it's so it's so glitchish. I really didn't like it. I liked everyone in their own place. Yeah, I was a very quiet child. I liked my music, like I had a little tape player and a CD player, and I would listen to my music and folk music? My folk music, anything from like musicals to folk to pop music, and that eventually matured over time, but I was much happier plugging in and doing my own thing. My mum and dad always said that I was a very independent kid, and they still say it like you're a very independent person, like the fact that you can go off to Japan on your own for three weeks, it just doesn't I don't understand how you can do that. And I was like, it's the easiest thing in the world for me.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Really?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

I took Yeah, I didn't solo traveling once, but that was because I was visiting family, so I sort of combined the two. Yeah, I don't think I could do it if it was just like I've now got to find a structure and itinerary to go to.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah, Japan was a little different just because I was travelling with a group at times, but Australia, for example, did it all on my own.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I was on my own for two months and I loved it. Did you see the pachenko parlours in uh Japan?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Oh no, not in Japan. No, I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Karaoke? You must have gone to Karaoke.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Oh yeah, in Osaka, that was messy. But I yeah, I'm very happy on my own. I went to a town in Japan called Takeyama and it was a really moving experience because I was staying in a temple, and it's quite often that temples will be used as almost like B's, and that's quite commonplace, but the monks would always offer you the opportunity to go for a morning meditation and to go to morning prayers and things, and I went and found it very moving. I'm not a particularly spiritual person, it's not something I'm into, but that it was the sense of peace and quiet. And you can take like a vow of silence, and I didn't talk to anyone for two days, and it was the best two days.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Well, I think that's the idea of that makes my head. Really?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

I really crave the and now I'm you know in my 30s. I feel like I'm really aging into my personality.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Did you make sure you bowed everywhere when you were talking to people? Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm a big believer in kind of going with the flow and assimilation and stuff, and I tried to like learn some of the lingo. I'm I'm learning Japanese at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Is it?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah, I've been learning it for about a year. Go on YouTube, I knew this. It was just a really lovely experience, and I liked Japan. Japan was kind of a bit more my pace. Hi. Hi. I like I liked that people don't look at each other on on the tube. Like, leave me in that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're much like Londoners in that sense. No, but in London there's it's laced with disdain. Disdain. Whereas in Japan, it's out of respect. Yeah, respect, yes. You give people their space. And I quite liked rolling.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Did you listen to any City Pop?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

No, I'm not really into Japanese music from mummers.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

City Pop's one of the greatest genres ever created. Is it? It's Japanese disco from the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Alright. Yeah. Okay, well I'll have to give it a list.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Junko Hashi, Tomoko Aran, uh, all the other ones I used to listen to. I discovered it when I was in first year of uni. Yeah, I could go on that. I've got like, on that shelf you can see, yeah. There's like ten or so albums that are sitting.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

You're gonna have to send me some links because a lot of this completely eludes me. These these are these are the gaps in my musical knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

I'll give you the top five. So Amri's like one of the queens. Amri, okay. Amri, A and R Right. I've got three of her albums. Amory, okay. Yoonko Wahashi is massive. Tatsu Yamashita, he's really big. Okay. And a guy called Toshiki Kadamatsu. He did an album called After Five Clash, which is like a massive album in Japan. Like, imagine just like 80s disco, but in Japanese.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

I'm in.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

There's also like sub-genres as well, which are more kind of like jazz focused. Yeah, yeah. Slow might be more up your street.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, that genre is not something I can confidently talk about in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Sorry, I'm my ADHD in autism. No, that's fine. Once it triggers a special interest, it'll go off in it.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Listen, we've been here for a while now. Let's just go for it. But yeah, so that was what the original question was what I was felt like as a child, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're on to Japanese disco. This is a very good pod for me.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah, I was a really quiet kid and yeah, I had a small group of friends. I wasn't hugely gregarious. I just preferred books to people. Yeah, which probably didn't go down too well. That was a very kind of similar trajectory into secondary school. I had a small group of friends, really lovely people, and I really treasure those people, whether we kept in touch or not. But I just was really quiet. And I I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my former classmates don't remember me because I was really quiet, didn't really cause any trouble. I did everything right and on time, never had his attention. I was just really yeah, you know, my closest friends, they saw my slightly zanier side. Yeah. But I really kept to myself, and that was okay. Yeah, of course. You know, in hindsight, I mean at the time I definitely felt like I probably wasn't enough, or that I should have been more outgoing, or I needed to be like, you know, I I needed to be more or I needed to dress a certain way more often.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

And your school was uh fitted those certain stereotypes, shall we say, of the uh Essex community.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yeah, so I went to school in an area called Woodford Green, and it was sort of on the cusp of like it's like the London bit of Essex, but this feels more culturally, it's got an Essex sensibility, I would say. Yes. And in the 2000s, there was a certain bravado that comes with the Essex stereotype. A lot of gel from D05. Oh the dream map moves. I didn't really adhere to that. I was def I didn't really fit into a particular crowd or scene.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

No, you didn't fit the scene, I would say, of that school. No, I was listening to In a good way.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah, I was listening to Amy Winehouse. I did the whole rockabilly thing, which you know. You did the pot punk thing. I did the pot punk thing. I wouldn't say I was a full emo kid, but I dabbled. I definitely didn't feel like I fit in my own skin. Until when? Not until my like late 20s. Really? As long as that. No. Okay. I mean, when I say I'm aging into my personality, that's how I feel. I really felt like I don't belong here. And that's why as soon as I was able to, I moved away. And I'm not talking about university. I mean, even though I still live in London, I live like a an hour and a half away because of public transport. But I actively like didn't want to live in this area. I didn't want to live anywhere close to home. Not because I don't love my parents, of course I do, but I just didn't feel like you want to be reminded of that. Yeah, I don't feel like this area represents me. Didn't feel like something I wanted to do. And even though university was a really scary prospect, I really thrived on the independence and knowing I can eat when I want, I can go out with my friends when I want, I can party if I want, I can also curl up in the library if I want. I felt that I needed the space to do my own thing because that was something I always wanted effectively.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

I want to come back to the CH if we can, because you know I know you went to a school which had certain perceptions, maybe there was bullying, maybe there was a lot of cliakiness in certain year groups. I'm not saying you had your I don't I can't speak because I wasn't in your school. You had a really amazing moment when you disclosed the fact that you had it and you described the kids' reaction to you as a shrug of normalcy. Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

So in year seven, I was really, really nervous about starting secondary school because my primary school experience was so lovely, and those kids completely embraced me for who I was. And I mean that in the context of my disability for sure, and my personality actually. I think they really embraced that I was this shy, quiet kid. And because of the uniform restrictions, I had to wear my leg brace and it was on show. Okay. Because yeah, we didn't have many opportunities to wear trousers from as far as I can remember. And so my leg brace for my disability congenital hemiplasia was on show. And it was something that I did feel kind of self-conscious about. Like given the opportunity, like on weekends, I would wear trousers, for example, to cover it up. I didn't feel super comfortable because people did stare. That's just people's nature, it's curiosity, there's no malice intended there, and that's fine. But because you're in primary school, you're often with these kids from four or four years old.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Mine was tiny. I had like 20 kids and it was really good.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

But you're with them from the age of four, right? They know no different, they're almost desensitized to the fact that you've got this leg brace. But going into secondary school, I was terrified.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

And that's a huge transition if you had nothing that was standout. I found it horrible the transition from primary school to secondary school because my environment was so different. So many people on the pod have found that transition like horrible. And the most challenging, no, more so than going to uni, more so than going into six form, like all of that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Totally. I was like you. I went for a small primary school and was going into a massive, by anyone standard, massive secondary school.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Your mum was 30 kids on every class. Yeah. And then and we had 280 kids in a year.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

And yeah, it was just terrifying because I was going in with this leg brace and I just assumed I was going to be mercilessly bullied. I had this niggling anxiety that I was going to be annihilated. Don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

I think that's an actual anxiety, because it was mid-2000s, you know, it wasn't 2025. No, and kids kids can be horrifically cruel.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, they really, really can. And it was just a bit scary. So I remember in year seven, it must have been the second week, I'd noticed that kids were staring, and I hadn't quite plucked up the courage to be upfront and candid about it. And my English teacher, Miss Crompton, set us an assignment where we had to write like a small autobiography, and it has to be like a page long or something. And then I kind of went, Oh, I'm gonna do it. I think I'm just gonna incorporate my leg brace and my disability into this thing, into this assignment. And it was really, really scary. I took my little ballpoint pen and I began to write. Um, and I was kind of giving them a potted medical history, but also elements of what I was into. Dr. Neve at this point, yeah. Dr. Neve, exactly. Like I know everything about there is I know everything there is to know. And then I finished the assignment, and then when it came back around to me, when it was my turn to go up, I said, Hi, I'm Neave. I like X, Y, and Z. You might be wondering what this is on my leg. And then I just went and was waxing lyrical about my disability.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Hey, that's a good journalism link. It was the maybe the origins of it, pal.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Maybe. And then I sat back down, and I just remember a couple of the kids turning around and sort of giving me a nod, sort of like fair play. And I remember from then on, like no one really no one questioned it. They kind of went, cool. Your leg and your arm just operate slightly differently from everyone else. Cool. No one's gonna say anything nasty. There were a couple of times when there were some kids who said nasty things.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

But I don't mean like in other years, sort of thing, though, rather than in your year group.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yeah, or like there were a couple in my year group who said mean things, but they were quite swiftly dealt with. As in, like, actually, when I disclosed that a kid had called me a nasty name or was like continually calling me a nasty name, I opened up about it to a couple of friends, and the rumour mill spread around my form, and they all rallied behind me.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Oh, that's great. That's really yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

They all kind of went like that's not okay, and that person was dealt with, and that was the end of it. I mean, it stays with you enough to bring it up on a podcast, but it's it hurts.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

At least it was dealt with, you know. It was dealt with. And it's no small consolations.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Thankfully, it was sort of nipped in the bud fairly quickly, and this kid also had a bit of a reputation for being an arse.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

You spoke about Miss Crompton there, and our teachers can have a huge impact on our life paths, the people that we become. I include myself in that. And it wasn't just her who was an amazing influence on you, it was another amazing teacher, a PE teacher.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Of all teachers.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Of all teachers, called Miss Harding, who you spoke about offair to me. Just tell me why she had such a lovely impact on you as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

So when you have a noticeable physical disability, the last place you want to be is PE.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

It is like Lord of the Flies, isn't it, really?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah, and I again was terrified of going to PE. I really didn't want to go in, I really didn't want to do netball and all these physically taxing sports. I wasn't a particularly physical kid growing up, so I vehemently didn't want to do it. And then it was I remember going into a netball class, your bibs on, you're ready to go, and I was just sort of standing there like a bit of a gooseberry, like what's the point of me? And Miss Harding kind of called it out and she went, that whole game just completely bypassed Niamh. She was open and you didn't bother including her. And you know, thankfully nobody kind of took that personally, they just took it as an opportunity to go, okay, yeah, yeah, fair play. And they did start including me. The girls did start including me, and it was again, it's not malice. I just sometimes think that because I was disabled, they perhaps thought that I wasn't able to catch it.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

And you know, sorry, and I'm not meaning gonna bash a bunch of 12 year olds, then 12-year-olds, but it's a very natural thing to think. But also as a teacher, she used that as a learning opportunity for those kids. That was quite a magical moment. But that teacher, she never made me feel like I shouldn't be there. That was something that was a bit self-imposed. That was something that I definitely felt. Yeah, that was something that I definitely felt was the case. That I felt like I shouldn't be there because there were some girls who were really fantastic sports stars, and some of them went on to forge careers in sports who have done really well for themselves. Amazing. But it was just not gonna be my ow. But Miss Harding always made me feel welcome. And I remember in year eight we were doing a like gym class. So we had all like the, you know, those weird apparatus things that weirdly sort of fold out the wall.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah, they always come up on Instagram now as like this was your childhood, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Art bow triggered. Yeah. And you're sort of going, What the hell is this? And I remember really struggling in gym because I wasn't a very nimble kid, partly because of my disability, and I couldn't do a forward role. And to be honest, I still can't. But it because part of the assessment was you had to come up with some sort of like gymnastics. Routine, yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember it now. Yeah. Sort of coming back something. It's all coming back. It was really, really terrifying. And I'd been practicing for weeks this part of the routine, which was like a forward roll, but it was on one of the suspended beams, and so you roll around it. And on the last day of the assessment, I was so, so nervous. And Miss Harding was like, gonna be okay, so gonna be okay, don't worry, don't worry about it, mate. Well, she didn't say mate, but she's like, It's going to be okay. And lo and behold, I did it. I managed to do a full 360 around the suspended beam, and the class erupted into rapturous applause, and I had my moment. But I remember Miss Harding cried, and she was like happy crying. Yeah, she was like, Oh my god, you did it! I'm so proud of you. And that that moment will stay with me forever. And I remember at parents' evening, my mum met Miss Harding, and a moment that I always dread, two worlds colliding. That was the first and only time I didn't feel totally scared and anxious that my mother was meeting a teacher, because my mum said to her something like, 'You know, you've made me feel so welcome, you've made me feel really included and thank you,' basically.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

And you're sat there like a sausage.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah, like a silly sausage. I'm still a silly sausage. And I remember Miss Harding getting a bit emotional talking to my mum, even. Yeah. Miss Harding will always be a very, very special teacher in my eyes because yes, I had wonderful English, French history teachers, drama teachers, because those are the subjects that I liked and those are the subjects I thrived in. But it takes someone very, very special to go, I know this isn't necessarily the subject for you. I know that you're feeling anxious, and I know that you feel a bit out of place, but I'm gonna make you feel welcome, and I will never ever forget that as long as I live.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

What do you think it sparked in you after that moment?

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Maybe an element of tenacity. I think it probably lit a fire in me where I was like, I don't have to limit myself to anything. I was very good at understanding where my comfort zone is and where my boundaries lay. But those were my boundaries, you know, circa 2006. Those boundaries have extended somewhat and that actually I probably misinterpreted what a boundary is, and it's less about limiting oneself. Yeah, it's not about limiting oneself, it's about understanding that you have so much potential, and even though you will have boundaries that might transgress into places where you feel physically or mentally uncomfortable, those two things are quite different. Discomfort isn't about limitation, it was about reframing what discomfort actually was. Is this discomfort because I feel that I can't do this, or is it discomfort because I feel that this is something where I perhaps feel unsafe?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Purposeful suffering almost.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

And I needed to understand the difference between the two.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

You spoke earlier about finally kind of being safe or loving of your own skin, of your own self in your late 20s, pal. When did that moment occur? Tell me back to that. Why why was it that period of your life where you felt actually I can be Neve in full totality and embrace? Myself.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

I think a lot of the legwork was done in my mid-20s when I started out and I was actually like surrounded by other disabled people. Because even though in primary school there was one other young girl who was disabled, but it was a different disability and she was in a different year group, which in primary school you don't ever cross those year group boundaries. Like cross the streams, yeah. No, exactly. So I was the only physically disabled kid in my year. And then in secondary school, it was a kind of similar experience. And that's quite isolating. Yes, I can go to my classes. Yes, I can engage in those classes. Yes, I can have friends, and yes, I can do all these things, but I know there's something not quite the same. I know that I have these like physical limitations. And in my mind at the time, I see that as a fault or I see that as a weakness. And was that in every space? I don't know. No, but it was always there. It was a constant thing. In any given space, I will risk assess. I'll do like an internal risk assessment. I'm going, that's gonna kill me. That's not safe. Why is that there? Stop. Or I'll go, oh, maybe I'll sit this one out because I don't think that I'm gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

It must have been exhausting power, having to do a DBS check in your head every time you go into a space.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

I don't really know any different. Maybe it's it's something I've never really not had to do. So I would walk into every space and feel like that. But I guess when I left school met other people, met people from different parts of the country, different parts of the world, even, who had very different experiences to me, who had different worldviews and stuff. I started to open up a bit more and see that, you know, perhaps this is not a huge burden. And then when I got into my twenties and started meeting people in the disability community and started then engaging with them online, for example, in those communities, I really started to feel less alone. That was the overriding theme. I felt really isolated and I didn't feel like I had anyone to talk to about my very specific experience. Whereas even though I'd be talking to blind colleagues, elements of their experience mirrored my own. And even though their way of navigating the world, because they have to have like an assistance dog or a personal assistant to help them get around the building, those are the two things that I've never experienced. But I know what it's like to feel like you're the only person in the room who is a bit different. I know what it feels like to feel a bit unesirable, or like, oh, I don't really know if I want Niamh on my team. You know what I mean? And sure, a lot of that is self-imposed. And a lot of that comes from a lot of subliminal messaging that says, this is acceptable. This is acceptable femininity, this is acceptable, this is what an acceptable child looks like and behave, this is what an acceptable child, how they behave, how they conduct themselves. I don't fit into all of these little boxes, and therefore I must be defective in some way. And there's not a whole lot you can do about it, and it's not personal to anyone in particular, and I'm certainly not pointing the finger at anyone for those things, but it does get you down a bit. It does get you down.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

You've spoken really bravely and honestly there, pal, about other areas of your life. The CH has impacted. So, for example, intimacy, relationships. What is your relationship like or has been like with self-esteem, self-confidence from child to adolescence and adulthood now?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Um, I had very low self-esteem. I didn't love myself very much, and I think a lot of that came to a head in my late teens, early twenties because I wasn't a very physical person, and then I discovered like I basically went to the gym for the first time, which was like a weird experience because I didn't love PE. Love Miss Harding, but I don't love PE. I didn't love Miss Harding, if you're listening. I know it was not my natural habitat. And I was a little heavy growing up, something that I was sort of weirdly aware of as a sort of byproduct of not doing a lot of exercise. Right. But then suddenly I got a lot of that weight dropped off and I noticed that people were treating me differently.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

As in like male attention.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Male attention, even just like in shops and things, I noticed that people were a bit warmer and I'd blossomed a bit. And yeah, sure, leaving school and going out into the real world boosted my confidence a little bit. But I definitely attributed that popularity to my size, which isn't very healthy, and I know that's not very healthy. So it took a long time to get out of that weird mindset because I did go through some times of disordered eating and over-exercising, and that's something that I've spent. I'm definitely over the worst of it now, but I definitely overdid it in the gym for a long time and lost way too much weight. And because I sort of tied it all in with my self-esteem and was restricting my diet a little bit and restricting my intake of food, and then realizing that, you know, if I were to go for a drink with some friends, I'd have one glass of wine and be absolutely off my tits because I hadn't eaten. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. It's really, really dangerous. But uh thankfully, through a bit of therapy and through just really great networks and connections and embracing my body through my disability, through my disability colleagues, and celebrating that element of my body, it slowly built up my confidence and also just the changing rhetoric and narrative that we're having around food, body, image. I slowly got out of those strange ruts. Yeah. Growing up, I had really low self-esteem because I just felt that I wasn't the right kind of kid because I was so quiet and it was almost frowned upon that I was so quiet. Whereas those louder kids, the ones who were, you know, super adorable because they were doing a fun dance or they were like saying funny things, they're the ones who are celebrated. They're the one because they unless you're too loud like me, pal, yeah. It goes the other way. There's never a happy medium. But thankfully nowadays I have a much healthier relationship with my body and with food, and it is something that I yeah, I realize that I am absolutely okay with being who I am. And a lot of that came down to a very special friend. Her name's Emily, she's my flatmate. She also is neurodivergent. I met her at university, she's a couple of years older than me. We met as postgraduates, and she's my best friend, she is one of the most important people in my life. She is basically my sister, like the big sister I never had, kind of thing. And she really helped me understand that I am absolutely fine the way I am, and that I don't need to change, I don't need to adhere to some strange diet or workout regimen to be accepted. I think as well, it's because she is so steadfastly herself. And yeah, she received a late diagnosis, but she has used that as an opportunity to not only lean into those traits that led to the diagnosis, but she's also allowed herself the space to understand why she does the thing she does, manage it in such a way that she can navigate this mad mad world.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

It's a journey I've been on the last few years.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Totally. And it is a journey, but I don't think she even knows herself how much she has helped, you know, because I am a little bit self-conscious, I am a little bit paranoid about what people think of me, and I know I shouldn't care. Whereas she's on the opposite end of the spectrum. No pun intended. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

I didn't even think. Don't worry, don't worry. I've just been shaky. Yeah, she's a great mirror to have.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

She is, and she's the kind of the person who will bring me straight back crashing down to work. It's like Neve breathe. It's okay. She was also really good, like if something really crap was happening at work or something like was just a bit getting me down, and she's like, Neve, does it really, really matter?

SPEAKER_01 31:01

No one's gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

No one's gonna die. I mean, you don't have to include this in the podcast, but you know when it's like someone is effectively just swinging their cock around the office.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, dick swinging. Dick swinging.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, and it's like just because somebody's the loudest in the room doesn't mean they're right. Doesn't mean that their word is gospel and you've got to stop thinking that just because you're not the loudest in the room doesn't mean that you're not valid and that you don't deserve to be there, kind of vibe. She just she was very good at making me see the bigger picture. Yes. Very good at that, and she's been a huge help, particularly over the last few months, and now I've come out of the BBC because there is a an element of unlearning.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't need 15 levels of sign-off or something now.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Thankfully, I think you were shouting to the heavens there with the yeah, that's the hangover of a Catholic upbringing. It was just yeah, I she's just one of my favourite people, and yeah, I love her very much. But she really, really helped me understand that I am exactly where I need to be. I don't need to do like 900 things at once. I don't need two million followers to be feel life's worth living kind of vibe.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

You said earlier a really powerful quote that you said to me off air, which is this is the body I have and this is the body I've embraced. How do you feel now in 2025 looking back at that 10-year-old, eight-year-old, 12-year-old, 14-year-old Niamh?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

You could have seen the woman you've become now.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

I I mean, firstly, I never really thought beyond the end of the week when I was growing up. It was like I was very much living for Friday. I think I'd like to think that those little girls would be proud. Because I think in your head you just think, oh god, I did look to the future with a great deal of trepidation. I didn't like the idea of I didn't like the idea of like sometimes like I was very scared for my future.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Big bad world.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah, I didn't know that I would cope because I am very independent and I am I'm the type of person who will dance to the beat of their own drum whenever, wherever, I will just make an Irish exit. I will do my own thing always, and that has been a strength, but also has caused a bit of trouble in my life at times.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Welcome to the club.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, it's like uh the word difficult has been found in the before. And yeah, I'd like to think that they would be really proud that I've always sort of stuck to my guns and that fundamentally I've changed for the better, and that I've grown as a person, and that I haven't really given in to bigger flow expectations, prejudice, all that stuff stuff that you could have given in. Yeah, I'm still really proud that like I reported that bully all those years ago. I'm proud that I took that leap. You know, I had lovely friends holding my hand at the time, but I fundamentally that I did it. And I'm really, really proud of that person and proud of the person who bid for Sharon Stone. I'm proud of the person who sent in a demo tape for an internal award show. I'm proud of the person who gets up every morning and just does the thing because sometimes that is the hardest thing to do in your down days or in the days where you're feeling a little bit like life is hopeless and this is all for naught.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

And as a final question, as we reflect on your mental health journey as well, pal. Similar question is the first topic. What has this mental health journey taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

That you're exactly where you need to be, right here, right now. There's no such thing as a guilty pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Only other people who try and make you feel guilty about liking it. Yeah. That's what I always say.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Yeah. There's no such thing. If you want to listen to K-pop and K-pop demon hunters, and you're in your forties, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

No one will ever shame me for my anime taste.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, no, just like what I've learned is like UDU. What else have I learned on my mental health journey? That's kind of coming back to what we said off air, is like this is the body I have. This is the body I've embraced. And if somebody doesn't like me or doesn't want to accept me over something that I can't control, that is a big fat slice of not my problem. And that has ultimately set me on this really exciting trajectory whereby those little elements of my personality that I felt ashamed of back in the day, my quietness, my independence, the fact that I will just walk off without telling anyone, and then I'll be getting like 300 texts saying, Where are you? Are you dead? Maybe less so that one. But all of those things are strengths and they are things to be proud of. I am proud of the fact that I have built a really nice life for myself, and I've done it all on my own, more or less. I have wonderful friends, I have a wonderful family, and yeah, I for the first time in you know, a really long time, I'm excited about the future. This is the first Christmas where I've not been like, oh god, New Year's resolutions, oh what are we gonna do in 2026? I have to be better. It doesn't have to be better, and you don't have to create some sort of superhuman version of yourself for the new year. It's okay. And shy bands getting out.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Our final topic of conversation, Neeb, and it's one I try and have with all of my special guests if we have time. It is a general natter and quick fire chat about our mental health. I know you love a chat, so we'll try and make this quick fire if we can.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Alright, alright, all right.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Focus. How is your mental health?

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Grand.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Scale out of ten. Uh eight. Love it. What age were you when you became self-aware of your mental health and you realised that the feelings you were having weren't physical and they were actually in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 37:36

16.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Was it a gradual process or you wreak a moment?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Gradual.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Can you remember the first conversation you had about your mental health with someone? And if you can, who is it with? What did you say? And how did you feel? Did it feel like the big moment and weight had been lifted or on something quite easy and normal?

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Um, it was like a huge weight had been lifted. It was in my early 20s, it was with a friend and something was really, really bothering me. I didn't really know how to feel about it, and I wanted to cry. And then as soon as I told her my issue, we talked it through. We started the process of solving that issue.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Amazing. What things in life do you find that trigger your mental health? So it could be things people say to you: a sound, a smell, a taste, a sensation, a social environment, or have you not figured all of them out yet?

SPEAKER_00 38:26

I would say I really don't like hugely crowded spaces.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Really don't like them get in the bin.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Teachers in public spaces.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Teachers in low. You like the crillatines in Doctor Who. You actually sleep in the staff room. You hang from the ceiling in the staff room. I yeah, don't like crowded spaces.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

I You said conflict affair, was that one that you had or not?

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Um I think sometimes in journalism, like you know, there's a lot of big personalities and there are lots of creative people.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

And so creative differences can cause clashes.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Thankfully, I've never had like any major clashes.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

I've seen them.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

And what about positive triggers then?

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Positive triggers. Food.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

I've really lent into the fact that I am a foodie and it took a while to get to that because I think one of the things that was really playing on my mind was like not leaning into my love of food. Because I think for a lot of people it was the other way around, as in like food can be a really awful trigger, as in like I feel this is this is horrible.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

But I guess an EDU said you have to face your demons every day with food.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

There is still an element of that, but I think by cooking and taking sort of control of it, as in like I know what I'm putting into this dish, then I bung it in the oven. I'm now taking ownership and control because I'm a big flavours person. I love spice, I love big aromatic spices and sharing food with friends and stuff and seeing it as like a communal experience and making it more of an event. I do find a lot of joy in eating because it's like for me, taste is one of the strongest senses for me, and it's something that feels like really visceral every time I eat, but also music, music has been like a really biggest scale.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Now we're talking.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Music is my biggest vice, and I've also turned to writing a lot recently, like prose, been writing more creatively, and one of the first things I do when I write a character is I make them a playlist, as in like it's something that they would listen to, and it's all depending on like when it's something is set. Like if I'm writing a character who was in their 30s in the 1980s, like what would they be listening to not only in the 80s, but okay, if they were in the 30s and 85, it means they were a teenager in the early 70s, right? What would they be listening to? So you kind of have like a lifetime playlist, and it's like every life has a soundtrack, right? So I always try and get through my characters through their headphones, and that's quite a meditative state.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Conversely then, what positive tools and methods do you use to improve your mental health or help you feel better? Which ones have worked and maybe which ones that you've also tried but haven't?

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Um yeah. Exercising, I'm still getting to grips with that.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

So one of the things that was negatively impacting my life was at cardio. It went from this is quite fun to if I don't hit this amount of kilometres, I am going to hate myself for the next three days.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

That's why I never got a fit bit. I just run if I reach a time, great. I don't like I've done X amount of calories.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Because in many ways, my problem started with exercise over the food. The food was more as a result of the over exercise thing. Okay. Because I was like, I'm losing weight. I can maintain this if I restrict my calories. That was where that came from. Whereas now I do way more Pilates and yoga.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

No body weights yet?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Oh yeah, no, I do kettlebells.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Oh, lovely, great.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I lose kettlebells and I've gone up a weight. So I'm feeling very smug right now.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Um, but I threw out my weighing scales. I was like, I don't want to like you with your watch, your Fitbit. I was like, I can't have the numbers. If I have the numbers, I will overthink it. So I haven't weighed myself in six years, which is really good. I don't want to know as long as I feel good. I'm not gonna sit there and count every ab kind of thing. I can't do it. And yeah, I would say like yoga has been quite a good one because it's a physical thing, but it's a mind-emptying thing. And I know for a lot of people who practice yoga, it is a great spiritual moment where they feel a bit connected to something higher than themselves. For me, that's not the case. It is just a moment to really pause and get out of one's head. Yeah, and reading.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Or you brought me nice on to my next question, which is what is the best book, or as I call it mental health Bible you've read for your mental health. Now it can be mental health or self-help related, doesn't have to be, it can be fiction, and if you can't think of a book, album, TV show, any piece of popular culture.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Okay, thank you, because I d I'm not very good at reading non-fiction or self-help stuff. That's great, that's fine. Fiction books are great too. Um, what's a really good book? I Love Anything by Grady Hendricks. He is an American writer who focuses on like the satanic panic period of the 80s. Oh, yeah, yeah. But kind of really leans into the superstition and the supernatural. So writes books called My Best Friend's Exorcism.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Oh wow. Which is a great book. Yeah. I've only read the non-fiction parts of that. I've read like a book called Strange Contagion about social contagions, I've read a book about cults and stuff, so which focused on that era, but yeah, not leaning into the actual fiction element of that, okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yeah, so like or like the Southern Book Club's guide to slaying vampires. Oh wow. It's comedy horror. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

I love horror fiction.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

If there was a mantra in life that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00 43:44

A mantra for my mental health.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Yeah, like a quote or a phrase or a saying.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Most people are other people, their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their life are mimicry, their passions are quotation. Oscar Wilde.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Wow. And Shy Bern's getting out.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

And Shy Burn's getting out.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

I was so annoyed that you didn't go to that one straight away.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

It didn't really attribute that well to my mental health.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah, no, fair enough, fair enough. What do you love about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 44:11

I'm really independent. For a lot of people, that doesn't come naturally to them, and I'm glad that it comes naturally to me.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

It can be two other traits.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

I think I'm very generous. I do think I'm generous. You know, when people talk about like love language and things, mine's like acts of service or like giving people things. I like to think I'm a good gift giver. But I think actually, you know what, now that I think of it, one of the things I really like about myself is that I take people for who they are. No one's perfect, right? Otherwise it'd be boring. Sometimes people are really gonna push your buttons or whatever, or like people are gonna have off days. Everyone has an off day. No one is a hundred percent all the time, and you can't put that on people, you can't do that. If someone wants to sit in a room with you in silence, that's cool. No one's expecting you to be like a showman all the time. And I think I'm quite good at meeting people where they are, and I try to make as much space for forgiveness as I can.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Not a lot of space in society for that at the moment, no.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

I mean if if you fuck with my family, then you're dead to me. Or if you show yourself to not be a particularly kind person, then I will show you the door respectfully. But I always try and give people the benefit of the doubt and understand that, you know, they've had a day, it might have been good, it might have been not so good. That has affected their mental state right there and then it's affected how they're talking to you or how they're navigating the workplace or the bus they've just stepped on, and you have to accept that. You have to embrace it, and that's without animosity and without reservations.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

And with grace. Yes. Yeah. And as a final question, pal, you can answer it any way you want. What more do you think we have to do to ensure people from all backgrounds, all walks of life, all social classes feel comfortable and safe in opening up about their mental health issues or just their general mental health, if most importantly, they want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Start from the top. It starts with legislation. It starts with them making the decisions to make those spaces available, those resources available, so that it gives people the space to do that. That seems like quite a formulaic approach, but I fundamentally believe that it starts there because then it gives people the if they see themselves represented or their stories positions of power. And then you give those people the space to talk about their feelings on a podcast, you hear someone who's had a similar experience to you, but on the other side of the country, it's like somebody else has made that happen, and it's a trickle-down effect. And effectively, once that happens, you offer up a space for people to be candid, for people to phone up their mate and say, Look, I I need to talk. Can we just go to the park? Can we have coffee? Can we chat through some things that's kind of been in my mind for a while? Can we do this, please? And uh yeah, that's how I see it.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Neve Pal, it has been a whirlwind, it has been a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Certainly has.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Thank you so much for coming on the Just Checking In Pod and talking to me, pal.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

You are so welcome.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Well, we have come to the end of this mammoth episode of the Just Checking In Pod. A big thank you to Neve for being my special guest and for giving up so much time for me and for letting me check in with her. I'll put some links to where you can follow Neve on social media and find out more about all of the brilliant work she has done and will continue to do in the show notes. As always, thank you to all the vendors who've tuned into both parts of Neave's journey. Remember, if you've liked what you've heard, please give it a share on social media. Tell your friends, family, or work colleagues about us. If you're feeling generous, write us a review and give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you want to support us further, go to patreon.com slash eventhelpuk or make a one-off donation to our PayPal. All of those links are on our link tree. That's linktr.ee slash vent helpsuk. We hope to check in with you again very soon. And remember, guys, it is always okay to vent.