JCIP #342 - Olena Lukyanova

In episode 342 of The Just Checking In Podcast we checked in with Olena Lukyanova. 

Olena is a qualified therapist and the Director of her therapy practice, OL Psychotherapy and Consulting. 

Olena had a desire to become a therapist from a very young age but growing up in the post-Soviet Union era in Ukraine, this wasn’t an option for her, so she studied economics at university and became an economist for many years.

She then moved to the United Arab Emirates and was living there 10 years ago when Ukraine was first invaded by Russia.

Whilst she was there, she set up a Ukrainian cultural club for fellow ex-pats and organised rehabilitation for wounded Ukrainian soldiers and former prisoners of war. 

The more time she spent with them, the more she realised that the mental health support of these soldiers should also be a focus, and she began receiving positive feedback from the men and women she worked with about her listening and therapeutic skills.

She then moved to the UK in 2015, and in In March 2022, once the war in Ukraine expanded beyond the Donbass Oblasts, Olena applied to study psychotherapy in the UK at the Metanoia Institute, and she graduated in 2025.

In this episode we discuss her professional journey, her desire to become a therapist and the achievement of becoming one and the clients she has worked with from different nationalities, ethnicities and backgrounds. 

We discuss the support she has given to fellow Ukrainian ex-pat clients in the context of the Ukraine war, and also why she doesn’t want to limit herself just to supporting these clients, as important a role as it is.

We then talk about how she’s built her therapy practice, transitioned into this new career, and how it’s made her get to know herself better.

For Olena’s mental health journey, we discuss her life through the lens of a group of revolutions or conflicts: the collapse of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the Orange Revolution in 2004, the Maidan Revolution in Ukraine in 2013/2014 and the Russian invasion of Ukraine first in 2014, and again in 2022.

We talk about her experience of childhood bullying in Ukraine for being a ‘different’ person and the environment of the country after the collapse of the Soviet Union, how the Maidan Revolution impacted her and her conception of herself as a Ukrainian and when Russia invaded Ukraine.

As always, #itsokaytovent

You can find out more about Olena and OL Psychotherapy and Consulting here: https://www.ol-therapy.com/.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hi Venters, welcome back to another episode of the Just Checking In Podcast. I'm your host, Freddie Cocker, and this podcast is brought to you by Vent, a place where everyone, but especially men and boys, can open up about their mental health issues, break down stigmas, and start conversations. And each episode I check in with a special guest. We have a natta and a chat about all things mental health, as well as anything and everything else they are passionate about. If it helps that person with their mental health, we discuss it. My special guest for this episode is Olena Lukyanova. Olena is a qualified therapist, having completed her qualification from the Metanoia Institute in Counseling and Psychotherapy, and is the director of her therapy practice, OL Psychotherapy and Consulting. She also provides therapy on a volunteer basis at the Kingston Women's Centre, which she has done from October 2023 to now. I came across Elena as she is starting a new chapter in her journey as a therapist in couples counselling. However, she is not well versed in it just yet for us to discuss it. Elena had a desire to become a therapist from a very young age, but growing up in the post-Soviet Union era in Ukraine, this wasn't an option for her. So she studied economics at university and became an economist for many years. She then moved to the United Arab Emirates and was living there 10 years ago when Ukraine was first invaded by Russia. While she was there, she set up a Ukrainian cultural club for fellow expats and organized rehabilitation for wounded Ukrainian soldiers and former prisoners of war. The more time she spent with them, the more she realized that the mental health support of these soldiers should also be a focus, and she began receiving positive feedback from the men and women she worked with about her listening and therapeutic skills. She then moved to the UK in 2015, and in March 2022, once the war in Ukraine had expanded beyond the Donblast oblasts, Elena applied to study psychotherapy in the UK at the Metanoia and she graduated in 2025. In this episode, we discuss her professional journey, her desire to become a therapist, and the achievement of becoming one. Her work at the Kingston Women Centre and the clients she has worked with from different nationalities, ethnicities, and backgrounds. We discuss the support she has given to fellow Ukrainian expat clients in the context of the Ukraine war and also why she doesn't want to limit herself just to supporting these clients, as important a role as it is. We then talk about how she's built her therapy practice and transitioning into this new career and how it's made her get to know herself better. For Elena's mental health journey, we discuss her life through the lens of three revolutions or conflicts. The collapse of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the Orange Revolution in 2004 in Ukraine, the Maidan Revolution in Ukraine in 2013-2014, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine first in 2014 and again in 2022. We talk about her experience of childhood bullying in Ukraine for being a different person, and the environment of the country after the collapse of the Soviet Union, how the Maidan Revolution impacted her, and her conception of herself as a Ukrainian and how it evolved after Russia invaded Ukraine. So this is how my conversation with Elena Lukinova went. Olena, welcome to the Just Checking In Pod. Thank you so much for letting me check in with you first of all. I'll do my best at Ukrainian accent here and say Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava to start off with. How are you on this Sunday morning?

SPEAKER_04 4:07

Oh, thank you. It's lovely, and thank you for inviting me. And especially thank you for greeting me on Ukrainian.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

I practice that a little bit. Ukrainian is very hard, but I practiced that as much as I could.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Oh, you've done really well.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Thank you. Thank you. Your life has taken you across the world in so many different directions to where you are landed here today. So without further ado and delay, are you ready to start the show and talk all about it?

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

We're going to start your podcast, Elena, by talking about your professional journey as it's encompassed so many things. So tell me back to the beginning, if you can. You're growing up in post-Soviet Ukraine and you have this huge desire, a very different one from many of your peers, I imagine, to be a therapist from a very early age. What do you think drew you to that and why?

SPEAKER_04 4:56

Oh, I think we will have to talk about different factors. Um, when I look back, I have to say, I believe I was from the beginning very intuitive empath. So I really enjoyed just absorbing the people, looking at them, you know, their survival abilities. That wasn't an easy time. We're talking about tyranny of the Soviet Union. Me and my parents were traveling a lot, so I have seen a lot of different people in different stages of their life. And I have to tell you, I learned a lot from the time. But we're talking about the Soviet Union, it means the feelings are not existent there. So it was always something very secretive, something very much inside of me. And I believe I was blessed to meet when I was young, young adult. One of, I believe this person became my first mentor, a woman, psychologist, surprisingly. There was some psychologist, and she gave me a lot of her personal time. We were meeting on the weekends between the lessons, and she just was, you know, unlocking this world of psychology, psychotherapy, feelings, thinking, and just human psyche. And I believe she was the one who just, you know, deep-seated the decision in me, you will have to become a psychotherapist.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Unfortunately, however, the environment you were in, as you said, meant that you realized that for the time being, at least, becoming a therapist wasn't an option for you. So you turned to economics instead. You completed an economics degree and you became an economist for many years. Did you enjoy it for the time that you did it, or did you see it more of as like a stopgap to something else?

SPEAKER_04 6:37

You know, you can hear from the pleasure and familiarity of working with people, I chose the most ridiculous, the most opposite profession, like a completely soulless corporate world. Uh, did I enjoy it? No. I have to be honest. No, I didn't enjoy it. Was it useful for me? Yes, absolutely. And I have to tell you, I've gained a lot of skills. So for me in this profession, in any other business I might have, I have no questions with admin work, I have no questions with the financial work, easy for me. But something else, what I learned from the time, you know, I've met lovely people who consider themselves high achievers. And I saw the metamorphosity would, you know, just doing for themselves. And actually, I was one of them. You know, that it's not only a witness this, I believe I've done it to myself. When we had to betray ourselves, so we had to deny our true selves and to pretend to be someone, pretend that we don't have a feeling, that's only what we need a success, to the point of the you know, burnout. So when in my practice now people are coming with the same symptoms and the same ideas, like I'm done, I have nowhere to go. I really understand what they're talking about. So, yes, the time was not joyful but useful.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

How did you take yourself out of it?

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Again, various factors. I believe what we call a midlife crisis, which is not a crisis, in fact, it's just the invitation to reset and to understand am I agreeing with the way you know I chose before and it didn't feel right for me. And the war in Ukraine has started, so it was just all together. It's you know, there wasn't one thought in my head, it's now or never, and it happened.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

As you said, in 2014, your world and the lives of all of your fellow countrymen and women changes forever as your country is invaded by Russia for the first time. On this occasion, the conflict is localized to two regions, so Crimea and the Donbass. The conflict causes untold destruction, hardship, distress for everyone. You know, it even causes Ukrainian football titan like Shakhtar Donetsk to have to move permanently. I read a brilliant book on it. You're living in the UAE at the time. So just take me back to that moment when you heard the news and how it impacted your mental health at the time.

SPEAKER_04 9:15

It's just one of these moments which people describe, you know, that day changed my life. It's something unbelievable for me happened. For some reason, I never thought it might happen to my country, to the people I love and I relate to. And there was something something weird about living in a beautiful Arab Emirates, enjoying the best of their lives, working hard, but still, you know, living in a very safe, completely safe environment, and looking at the CV and looking at my phone and received, you know, hundreds of texts, awful photos, difficult videos, people cries, difficult time. And I remember feeling difficulty with being there without connecting. So I found myself on the airplane. I went to Ukraine, I have connected with the people I knew, the friends of mine, and very soon I went to the hospital, one of the military hospitals where I met an amazing medical team, brilliant volunteers, and they introduced me to the guys who were fighting for our land and my family as well. And this is how it started.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

You obviously did your bit, you stepped up where you could, and you were helping all of these soldiers and former prisoners of war and other people who had been invaded by Russia at the time or had been impacted by the invasion. However, you started to realize it wasn't just the physical rehabilitation that needed work, it was the mental side, and maybe even more focus needed to be there. How did that change your perspective and how did you put that change in attitude into reality as well for the people you helped?

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Um, I mean it might sound surprisingly from the psychotherapist, but by the time I was just post-Soviet Ukrainian woman who underestimated feelings a lot. So for us, the physical rehabilitation was something was in our heads. But when the guys were coming, their family members were coming, and their children were coming, there was some something deeper seed that needed them just to talk to someone, just to uh take a breath, reset, heal, and move on. We didn't think about this in the beginning. Um, so talking to them and seeing them change week by week, something shifted in me. So I started contacting psychologists, psychotherapists in the UAE, and they were inviting me to the hospitals just to shadow them. They were lecturing me how to help myself being with these people, how to help them, how to listen to them. You know, I had very basic questions. What shall I do if they want to talk? And I remember they smiled and just said, do nothing. Just listen. And I thought it's not enough. And they said, believe me, this is more than enough when someone can listen and be with you in this. And it was such a huge in first lesson for me. So I was investing more of my time. We had a team by the time. Not a team, but yes, my peers, my soulmates, my friends, people who joined. So some of them were doing admin work, some of them were doing you know transportation. So for me, I just chose to be with them, to talk to them, and just to guide them through the time we're together and help them to feel safe and to be back. And you know, interestingly, once they would be back, I started receiving calls from their parents, from their wives who would say, you know what's happened? He's sleeping now in the night. You know what? I feel he sees me. You know, when he came back, I was absent, our children were absent, and now they are back. So that was massive change, and I immediately remember feeling myself happy. It meant a lot for them, and it meant a lot for me. So this is when I realized that psychological help or you know psychological support is immensely important.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Do you think looking back after that desire to be a therapist had been dormant, you had to kind of put it on the back burner or put it into a recess of your mind, this was a moment when it sparked into life again?

SPEAKER_04 13:42

Yes, absolutely. And it felt real. That situation, it was enough, because it was a short-term program. There were no therapeutic boundaries. We had become friends. I had become someone who really loved them and adored them and was deeply grateful for everything that they've done. They have become my heroes, and I have become their you know, their friends. And it meant a lot. But I thought, okay, what else can I do? How else can I, you know, move on? But don't forget, by that time I still was working in corporate world. So I remember that, you know, going to the work, you know, coming back into this thinking environment, being not yourself, concentrating, you know, goal achieving, and then in the evening I will go back to them or I will take a week off and I will breathe with them. I would feel, oh my God, this is the life, this is who I am, this is who they are, you know, just to feel this connection with the people, just to experience them and allow myself to experience them in their fullness in their most difficult times. It's just somehow, despite being that difficult time, made me feel alive. Yeah, and I believe this is how it changed. A decision was made, I will have to do something with that.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Before we talk about metanoia and how you put that idea into reality, was there one particular conversation or interaction that really stands out as being so powerful for you or for the impact that you had that you can remember looking back?

SPEAKER_04 15:21

Uh yeah. Um it was 2022 and a big war kicked in, and the feeling uh the overwhelm when the whole country was in the move, millions and millions of people were affected, and I sat with my inner overwhelm too, without the ability to apprehend the whole the whole perspective, the understanding how it will end, what can I do here? And I remember a friend of mine who turns to be a psychotherapist, she just checked in on me and she just said, My dear, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 16:05

And I said, I'm just fine, I'm just fine. I'm just looking at me, my phones, you know, helping people to get out, helping people begin.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

And she just said, Can you switch it on? Can you talk to me? Are you taking care about yourself? And what are you planning to do? And I remember she gave me like, you know, half an hour her time, and I will never forget this because I had to take a breath. I went outside in the park, and I thought, what can I do now? And she told me, We can do psychotherapy together. And this is it.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Done. Yeah, it turns out to be Metanoia study metanoia students. So next morning I'm on a call.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

So after you put that into action then, just give my listeners an insight into the course that you did at Metanoia, the tools and skills that you developed, and how you went from someone who was just merely a great listener to someone who had the qualification to be a great listener as well.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

You know, I have to tell you, when I applied for Metanoia, I made my research and I was sure I was ready. I wasn't. It is an extremely challenging course, I have to tell you, because I was really ready to study and to learn the tools and create my toolbox and move on. No. So it took for me through years to actually step back and to go through, you know, what I call individuation, or just to revisit myself and to revisit every single step of my life and to understand who I really am, who I am relationally, what leads me to make any of the decisions, including the decision to become a therapist. So I have to tell you, every single tutor there has become a life-changing person to me because they shared a lot from them. They challenged us a lot. I was challenged greatly. Maybe they even don't know that, but I was. And I believe I grew there, and I think the tools itself the course gives has become not that important. You know, don't get me wrong, it is very important. But we can all get a CBD hours, you know, go for the short course and to learn how to do CBD or something, something like that. But the relational aspect of the work, the ability to look inside of you, and the ability to see it with the fear, oh my god, what is happening between me and client? And what part of me actually affects my client so much that this is happening between us. This is the most difficult and challenging part, I believe, for every human being. Just to know yourself well, to have an ability and curiosity and bravery to look inside non-stop and then to come back to the relationship and to see it with your clients as adult-to-adult or partner.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

You graduate from Metanoia in 2025. So, given what you had gone through in your childhood and had this desire, how special a moment was it for you and also maybe for your family as well to see you achieve that?

SPEAKER_04 19:20

Oh, for all of us. For me, it's interesting because this little event, you know, the the paper of goods by the end of these three years of deep studying had such a significance for me. It's just in that day I remember I felt that I'm exactly in that place and exactly in that time where I had to be. I felt whole, I felt grounded. You know, interestingly, I felt that I came back to myself. My family was so proud of me. I didn't expect that.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

My friends were so proud of me. The text I received, the calls I received, I didn't expect that, and it made me even more prouder.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

So yeah, it was a greatest time.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

As part of the degree, you needed to find some placements to learn, make mistakes, build your experience. You applied to loads of places, but the only place which gave you an interview was a place called the Kingston Women's Centre in West London. So, what makes that centre special and how did you help the women who access it?

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Well, I have to tell you, the journey to find a placement in the UK is something, it's a different topic. But I have to tell you, the Kingston Women Center, they were the first one to invite me for interview, and they immediately responded yes. And what I love in this place, this is a very non-clinical place. You know, the minute you stopping, you feel it's just a place where actually you can breathe and find this safety. I mean, yes, easy to say safety, environmental safety. It feels really good. Relational safety is something different. But I have to tell you, I really admired this place from the beginning and I love it still. The team is amazing. We have an amazing supervisory support. I meet the people, my peers, colleagues from different backgrounds, different cultures. We all share our knowledge, we all share our understandings. The whole environment is amazing, and I know not every placement can offer that. So I I'm afraid it sounds like a little bit of advertisement. No, I just love it.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

So full story.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

You said that some of the women who access the center were just people who got lost. So how did you help them find their way back?

SPEAKER_04 21:43

I think you know the methods of working with different people are different, of course. With some of them we just talk, and we're talking about talking therapy. With some of them, we do art therapy. With many of them, we did. We do the breathwork, we use the symbols, how to make you know unconscious meaning more meaningful. These are methods or tools, but what I believe is common for everyone, not only women, but I work in the place where the woman only acclines is the someone who is ready to be with you or to share your life story in all this pain and darkness, which sometimes feels too heavy and unbearable. So this is where magic happens when we understand I'm not alone in all this. There's someone there for me. There's something special when we learn to trust how difficult it could be. Many people never knew how to trust. We never know how to do this. Even though we say to ourselves, yes, I'm a trusting person and I drive my therapist. The minute it's happened, the minute we sink in the trust, then the moment we think, whoo, that's the difference. That's the love. So this is, I believe, what's important for every of us. We just sit together and walk through this together. As I said, breathe, take a breathe, reset, heal, and then move on. It's time to say goodbye to each other.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

I know how much you love the center, so I'm gonna give you one more attempt to give it some love, which is the fact that despite the fact that you graduated, you're in your third year volunteering there, you're still there, you keep coming back. What keeps you coming back?

SPEAKER_04 23:32

It's the same. I love this place. You know, I'm at that position then and I can dedicate one day of my life on my week in my life to that place. I deeply enjoy, you know, the moment I open the door and I see our admin and I see the clients in the waiting room, it is such a I don't know, magical place. It's like a we all talk, we all communicate. I really love this is it has this non-clinical vibe. So for me, this is a sense of belonging. This is a sense of place of growth, inclusivity. It's a lot. This place gives a lot to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

You graduate from Metanoia, and now you need to make the degree worth it and build your therapy practice. So tell me about OL Psychotherapy and Consulting and how you've made that career transition hopefully a success.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Thank you. Success indeed. I think I helped myself that I was preparing myself and the course itself in Imitanoia allowed us probably a year to prepare ourselves for that. We've been consulted a lot, so there were no struggle a lot around that. What I remember what was difficult for me is just to make sure I do not overwhelm myself because we still have 247. You know, our time doesn't grow. So there was intention. Yes, you know, I have to work constantly and I have to see as many people as you know they will knock my door. But no, I had to be very mindful about this and had an amazing relationship with my supervisor and with my therapist, and you know, we made it as slow as it needed to be and very meaningful. So I believe this is what helped me. Even though, you know, I believe this is what many of my colleagues struggle with. When we start working independently, we do have to introduce ourselves as an independent psychotherapist, and it takes a lot of time. So to go out on top of the existing work instead of family, you know, everything you have in your life, you actually have to spend a lot of time introducing yourself. So, yeah, thank you so much for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

My pleasure. You said to me, Offair, that you've been getting to know yourself through building this practice. What did you mean by that?

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Oh, um, that's a good question. Um You're a good listener, I have to tell you. You know, uh first of all, I'm very much aware that I'm integrating not only new identity in my life now, but as I said, I'm back to myself. I'm connecting with my real self at the moment. It means there is so much newness in me is coming up. So I got on board this attitude to learn myself and to reflect what is happening in every day of my life. And because of my work, I meet people every day. And they are my teachers too. You know, I learned from them a lot. I got to know myself through their lens as well. And yes, I really love this process.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

We spoke earlier about how proud you were of graduating from Metanoia and being a little bit almost surprised at how much you know love and support you got. But you've now achieved your dream of becoming a therapist. Has that sunk in yet?

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

You know, this is one of the greatest lessons I believe I've got throughout my course and the time of my inner work. I learned to enjoy the moments and and I learned to be proud of myself. So, yes, it is sucking.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

You support clients from loads of different backgrounds, but when it comes to your fellow Ukrainians and your countrymen and women, how do you support them when they come to you when they are experiencing issues related to the ongoing war?

SPEAKER_04 27:35

Um you know, every needs are different. So despite all of them coming from the country which suffers from the loss and grief, they all come with different needs. So this is very important not to shovel everyone under one diagnosis, oh, someone who suffers from the war. No, this is so important to listen, to be very careful, to listen to what they're trying to say and what is underneath, what is it they don't realize they feel, what is it they're so afraid to connect with. Because very often speaking with the people from Ukraine and not only Ukraine, we're talking about cultural influences too. We're talking about ancestor work as well. In Ukraine, we're talking about centuries of oppression and loss and grief and how much of this sits within my clients. So yeah, it's differently. I'm, you know, I have to be attuned to every single of them and don't forget, despite the similarities of the circumstances they're going through, they're all different human beings.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Despite what some people might think, you know, therapists are people too, they have issues, they have experiences, and they need to self-care quite well when it comes to the work they do with their clients. So because of your personal connection to the issues that you're supporting them, do you have to do maybe more self-care after you speak with these clients and support them versus maybe a client which isn't related to the the war itself or not?

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Yeah. Yeah. Very often they seem something what might elect to you directly. So at this moment it's important to somehow separate from you know my experience, which is very difficult. But I do have enormous support. I do have my peers, I do have my therapist, I do have my supervisors. So I very often allow myself a time to speak to them about it too. But yeah, the people from Ukraine very often to say something what is so close to me, to my skin, because you know, I'm Ukrainian too, my family, friends are there.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Let's reflect on this journey so far, Lena. So, first of all, what's been your proudest achievement on it so far?

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Um, you know, when I opened, took a key and then opened the doors of my practice, and I sat there fully grounded, and I thought this is it. It took for me 30 years to get to this point. That was the feeling. I don't know, self-pride, happiness, sense of achievement, and that moment of this is just the beginning. Yeah, that is something.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

And what goals and ambitions do you have for the practice in the future? Are there issues that you love to help more people with than you're doing now or not?

SPEAKER_04 30:50

Uh interestingly, um, you know, once I finished my course, I sort of looked broader. What else can I do? How can I help my practice to be my practice a lot? So I looked at the human being as the whole. So I noticed last centuries, you know, somehow it's happened that we we felt apart. Body is separate, mind is separate, spirituality separate, everything is separate. And I don't believe we can see a human being or beauty of the person sitting inside of you by looking at the one aspect of ourselves only. So what I do at the moment, I'm learning body-mind connection, I'm bringing a spirituality in my practice. You know, cultural responsive medicine was always a core of my practice because I traveled a lot, I've met so many people, but I'm just taking it to the completely another level. I'm developing, you know, new skills in me. I work with a lot of the symbolism, I work a lot with the meditation, I'm getting a certification at the breath work. You know, I'm just shifting the way I look at the people who came to my practice maybe wider, broader. Because I believe the broader I allow myself to look at them and relate to them, then it's easier for them to become, you know, what we say, a whole self. Yeah, so this is what I'm trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And as a final question before we move on, what has this journey also taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_04 32:36

Um, you know, interestingly. Many people speak now, and my colleagues, and probably you know, you in your podcast were talking about resilience. Somehow it never came to my to my repertoire that I'm a highly resilient person. I am surprised for me, not surprised for the people who know me, surprise for me. Yes, I am resilience, yes, my personal resilience and the ability to work hard and to be determined to the goal where I'm moving towards this goal. I always knew that I have a capacity, high capacity to learn, and I have a lot of curiosity towards, you know, who we are and what else can we expect from ourselves. But what I learned, actually, I think my core core abilities, I am very resilient. I was able to achieve the diploma. To get the diploma, I dreamed for so many years in the most psychologically difficult time for me, the most challenging time for me as any Ukrainian. So yeah, I believe this is something I have to raise myself for.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

We've talked about your professional journey. Let's go deeper and talk about your own mental health journey, Elena. So I ask all my special guests on this topic this question first. Take me back to early life in Ukraine in Zaporitzia, teenagers, and looking back, were there any early mental health experiences? Who's the Elena we meet here?

SPEAKER_04 34:13

Uh yes, if I would look back, the Elena was, yeah, very creative, you know, hardworking, goal-oriented, but also dreamy. I always hoped for the best, even though I lived in um dark times. We're talking about late years of Soviet Union existence and the time it collapsed. We're talking about economic crisis and uh the collapse of whole systems. Dark times. But I had still capacity, you know, to hold the hope that everything will be over and there is light in the end of that corridor. Yeah, that was me. And you know, interestingly, you're talking about mental health. There was no such thing as a mental health. I will tell you more. Probably you heard about the Soviet Union system of totalitarism. You're not allowed to feel. Feelings are not welcome because when you feel, uh, you think differently, and when you think differently, probably act differently. Absolutely. So you don't feel and you don't think. In this case, you're safe. We will tell you what to do, you will obey, and then you will survive, and we will tell you that you're happy now and you will experience the happiness. So the fear was underneath of all was deeply, deeply putten up. You know, it took for me years to connect with that fear of this systematic oppression we even never get meaning of. But we never thought about feelings. You know, for me the feelings was more a secret word, you know, something what lives within you, and you're not able to talk to anyone because it's not because it was not acceptable, it was actually dangerous for you. And unfortunately, yeah, that was the reality.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

During this period, like you said, you're dreamy, you're creative, you're different from your peers. You experienced some bullying in childhood, and you ask yourself questions like, How do I survive this? So, how did you, what got you through it?

SPEAKER_04 36:24

I still can't believe how I managed this. I mean, that was the darkest time. And you know, from the sweetest children, we somehow turned into the flock. And, you know, as always happened with a young adult, you know, the dominance and the power has become the only way to survive. I remember myself making a choice: am I with that part of the tribe or with another? And I made a choice which separated me from most of my friends who chose the powerful gang and physical violence and stuff like that. I remember myself again keeping in mind the hope I always held, and I I strongly believe in hope because it helps us to survive the darkest times. I remember the hope I held, and you know, my mobility to work hard, and I was studying a lot, and somehow I got sported by adults in the school and teachers, and surprisingly to myself, I was elected without even my knowledge as one of two students to the Students Your Committee, and we were working as the trustee members, can you imagine, for the huge school? I was in school, there were around 2,500 students, huge school. So surprisingly for me, without my awareness, what does it mean? It changed my life because immediately, hands off, no one would bully me ever, respect. Somehow, you know, I gained the power in it, which I even didn't expect to get. So all the voices got quieter, you know, respects, you know, get into the place. And one more positive moment, I met adults, you know, the parents, lawyers, uh, business people, doctors who actually invested their time in the social change. And I do believe they have become my teachers because I strongly believe that we do can lead the change and we we can change our lives for better.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

We've spoken about it a lot already, but you wanted to frame your mental health journey through these three massive events in Ukraine. So the collapse of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the Orange Revolution in 2004, and then the Maidan Revolution in Ukraine in 2013-14. Let's talk about the Soviet Union collapse first, because we've spoken about the dark times before it. But when it collapsed, was that the first time you saw hope of a better future for the country?

SPEAKER_04 38:53

No. Not the first time when I saw total system collapse.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

Medical system collapsed, you know, factories was closed down. People, adults were leaving abroad or anywhere else to get some money, abandoning, in fact, abandoning children who were so young by then. I remember seeing the parents in the age of despair. You can imagine from the system which supports you and stinks for you, feels for you, tells you what to do.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

The devil you know rather than the devil you don't almost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:28

Absolutely. Absolutely. So that was the first time when I experienced that. I remember, I literally remember I have a memories looking at the people and seeing how their psyche were in crisis, how the psyche were collapsing. Yeah, that's the very powerful memories, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah. You also said to me at this point that you didn't even speak Ukrainian or know much about Ukrainian culture because of the the hold that the Soviet Union had had on Ukraine as a country, despite being born and raised in it yourself. So how did that begin to change after the collapse of the Soviet Union, if anything at all? Or was it quite a few years before you started learning and reforming your identity around Ukraine rather than Russia?

SPEAKER_04 40:12

I would say it took probably a couple years in the place where I lived. And you know, the the life has become a little bit better, and probably I grew up a little bit. So at that time I remember not only the hope, uh this feeling of freedom of choice. You know, we were able to define who we are. So I forget about the awful fact that Ukrainian culture was almost underground or it was non-existent. Here we are, young people who were given a choice. What language do you want to speak? Do you want to do your course on Russian and Ukrainian? Oh, Ukrainian, of course. Do you know what does it mean to be Ukrainian? No, we don't know, but we want to know. So we were digging in into the old books and learning what does it mean to be Ukrainian? What did we hold? We had to learn history of Ukraine. I never knew the half of it. Or exactly, I knew only the Soviet part of it, you know, that lens. That freedom, I will never forget. It's just, you know, I believe the people not in many countries can experience this. There's something so liberating in it. When you actually define who you are, that's a beautiful time.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Russian is a pretty difficult language to learn for anyone, but when you became fluent in Ukrainian, how did that actually feel in reality?

SPEAKER_04 41:37

You know, when I learned Ukrainian, I learned it from the radio. There was one radio, Radio Svoboda. It's like old-fashioned BBC, I was saying. So in my imagination, I was very fluent in Ukrainian, but it was so old-fashioned you cannot believe.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

It's like from last century. And I remember when I spoke about this in my institution, and the people are native speakers, was fascinated. They said, Oh my god, like who taught you this? So, yes, I'm the owner of the most beautiful old-fashioned, you know, beginning of last century Ukrainian language.

SPEAKER_04 42:14

I mean, literally, I would come home, I would switch on the radio, and then I would make my notes, and I will repeat it. My accent difficult to say accent. I actually had an accent, typical Ukrainian old-fashioned, you know, accent. I still can reproduce it. But yes, then you know, within the Ukraine people started shifting too. So to my town, to the place where I live, came a lot of people from Western Ukraine, and I actually asked them, can you please speak to me Ukrainian? Can you familiarize me? And it felt amazing. It's like again, it's like back in your shoes. You know, it felt very organic, very natural.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

The next massive event was the Maidan Revolution in 2014. So for the listeners who don't know, it was centered around the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv and its independence square, Maidan Nezia Yanovsky. It was sparked by then President Viktor Yanukovych's abrupt refusal to sign an EU association agreement that then turned into a broader movement against corruption, demands for Yanukovych's resignation, and seeking closer ties with Europe. Protesters were then shot and killed by Ukrainian security forces. The military eventually turned on the president, which was the big turning point, and then he was deposed. How did you react to that revolution living in the UAE at the time? Did that feel like the moment of hope versus the collapse of the Soviet Union, which is more kind of chaos?

SPEAKER_04 43:37

Yeah. You know, firstly I want to tell you thank you for digging into this question. I really like how you introduced this because this is how I would describe what was happening there. It was a chaos, and I have to tell you, I remember that was a very weird feeling. If I would draw the parallel. You know, can you imagine you have a big family, you have a lot of siblings, and in one day you realize that one of the parents or all the parents are actually abuse your siblings. So you sort of have this, it's like a cellular in every single cell of your body, you feel this vibration. Then you you can firstly you cannot believe it's happening. Secondly, you have to do something with that, you have to support the people who you are. So as a Ukrainians, I believe we have this mega capacity to immediately accumulate our resources, connect with the people, immediate capacity of ourselves and just to do something with that. But I also remember, not for the first time in my life, but I was grown up already by the time I was a grown up woman, noticing that we are talking broadly, less divided, you know, in two parts of the society. And they're quite polarized. And despite my views, to sit with this together and with understanding we need to find the balance, we need to find a middle ground so everyone will be able to survive and live happily in Ukraine because otherwise Ukraine doesn't have any future. So that was probably the most difficult time because something similar is happening now in the world. You know, we're left or right, we're all in our opposites, we're all in our maximums, we're so loud of all of us. So the most difficult task for us now is you know to ask ourselves what makes us so rigid, what makes us so definite in our decisions, and when do we lose this capacity to ask what if? So how to find this ground in positions where we will not start a you know civil war on the third world war. We have to talk about that. So that was maybe the most difficult point at that time for me to realize that Ukraine is not all the people who want to speak Ukrainian. They were the world people who held a lot of fear of losing connection with Russia.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Not long after my dance, Russia invaded Ukraine for the first time when the Donbass was engulfed in war. So for the listeners, fraudulent referendums were held in the Russia-controlled regions and puppet separatist governments were set up. So, for example, the the Donetsk People's Republic, I'm using air quotes there, which claimed that the people wanted to be annexed, they set up referendums, rigged the elections, and then they annexed the region. Ukraine is still fighting for control of those regions to this day. How did you feel when that happened so quickly after Maidan? Did it feel like, oh, the hope has been a little bit extinguished, or did you see it in a different perspective?

SPEAKER_04 46:46

You know, as I work with symbolism, you know, I can offer us to continue the symbolic interpretation I offered before about the siblings and the parents. So can you imagine you rebel again, parents, parents left? Nothing works. We don't know what's the future. We need to learn how to grow and how to build our new home. The door is open, the window is opened, and then your powerful neighbor income in it and says, actually, this room is mine. All of you who disagree. Uh that's probably the best symbol to explain what's happened. We were not ready. Not on mental level, not on physical level, not on structural level. That was the worst time for Ukraine. Probably this is why this time was used against us. And at the beginning, to see how quickly everything was developing was scary. Because you know, we were sitting with the idea we were not sure that we will be able to stop it. And if you remember, the world actually took its time to think and look at the situation and to make a decision if Ukraine will be supported or not. So that was really, really scary and difficult time for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

When these conflicts happen and these wars engulf a country, there's a very sad reality that that country can be defined by the war's legacy. So for example, Israel, Palestine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Myanmar, even wars from the 2000s and 90s, like Iraq, former Yugoslavia states, they still hold a semblance of this legacy, and people forget that there's beautiful things about those countries, the people, the food, the culture, the sport. Is there a danger that that might happen with Ukraine? And how do you think as a society that we stop that from happening and try and remember the beautiful things about Ukraine and not just the war?

SPEAKER_04 48:46

Um, so the simple question, I don't know, because all conflicts you describes are so different. And unfortunately, this is reality. So often, you know, when someone will say Serbia, the only one meaning will come in our minds.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

You think of Sarajevo, you think of the bombings, you think of everything else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:05

Absolutely. Absolutely. I believe I want to believe it will not happen to us because I can hear how much we Ukrainian people are devoted to introducing ourselves. We constantly speak about culture, we constantly speak. The more we feel endangered, the more we introduce, you know, our cuisine, the more we introduce our culture music. Look at what's happening in London, you know, Ukrainian theater, Ukraine bands are coming so often. And who I see there? International public, English people. How beautiful it is. So I really want to believe this will help all of us to remember that Ukraine is much more than the war.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Ten or twelve years ago, you did your bit during the first war and you helped all those soldiers, you helped all those former prisoners of war. You now live in the UK. Do you ever feel a sense of helplessness or guilt that you're not able to as directly help the war effort than you did 10 years ago or not?

SPEAKER_04 50:10

Simple question, no. I honestly have to tell you, because that was a very significant moment when I applied for the course because I sat with this and I thought, what else can I do? Oh, I can psychologically help. I can apply myself, my patience, my knowledge, my instincts, my love to the people, my empathy to helping others. And yes, those people are Ukrainian, those people are of different nationalities.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Let's reflect on your mental health journey now, Lena. So, similar question as before. What has this mental health journey taught you about yourself, first of all?

SPEAKER_04 50:52

I learned that despite all the fears and discomfort, it's quite useful to look inside myself. Because one the old work is done, you are able to feel much better and much freer.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

And as a final question, before we move on to our mental health chat, if you could go back and talk to the Elena who was being bullied in school for being creative and a bit different, the Helena who was in Ukraine supporting those soldiers and maybe having those realizations about mental health for the first time again, or the Elena who was thinking about pursuing her childhood dream of becoming a therapist, what would you say to her, knowing what you do now, if anything at all?

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Well done. Really? Well done. Such a journey. You know, now while we are talking about this, it's just somehow coming into my attention how much, you know, I had to grow and challenge myself and change myself and change my life to get into this point. So yeah, well done.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Our final topic of conversation, Elena, and it's one I try and have with all of my special guests if we have time. It is a general Natter and quickfire chat about our mental health. So, firstly, how is your mental health?

SPEAKER_04 52:12

I will. Thank you for checking in. Scale out of 10? Nine.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Wow. Okay, brilliant. What age were you when you became self-aware of your mental health and you realized that the feelings you were having weren't physical and they were actually in your mind?

SPEAKER_03 52:29

That's a challenge. You said that's a quick question. Okay, never.

unknown 52:33

Never.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Until now.

SPEAKER_04 52:35

I mean, I mean, I was 16 when, you know, I started exploring this part of myself, but I still believe that, you know, our mind and brain and the feelings are very much connected with the body bidirectionally. So I'm not separating that completely.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Can you remember the first conversation you had with someone about your mental health? So if you can remember, who was it with? What did you say, and how did you feel looking back on it? Did it feel like the big moment or weight have been lifted, or on the other hand, something quite easy and normal to do?

SPEAKER_04 53:06

Yeah, it was the same, the same person, my mentor, and it felt huge. It felt like she actually asked me the questions she was not supposed to ask, and I was not supposed to answer those. Yeah, it felt massive and it still is.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

What things do you find in life that trigger your mental health? So it could be things people say to you, it could be a sound, a smell, a sensation, or have you not figured all of them out yet?

SPEAKER_04 53:33

Yeah, I'm very much aware of figures, yes. I'm very much aware of what is happening to me. Sometimes it could be, you know, songs, sometimes it could be a smell. For example, one of the songs which affects me a lot. When the war started, one of my friends who was fighting by that time sent me his video, and he didn't realize that that song was on the back. And since then, when I hear that, it's just all the feelings come back to me. What I experienced that moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

And conversely, what positive tools and methods do you use to improve your mental health or help you feel better? Which ones have worked, maybe which ones that you've tried but haven't?

SPEAKER_04 54:15

We already touched this. Breath work is my new everything. I'm loving it. I'm just learning how we can actually regulate. You know, we're talking about button-to-up method, how we can regulate our emotions through the breath work and meditation. This is new for me and probably the most challenging for me piece of work.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

What is the best book, or as I call it, mental health Bible you've read for your mental health? Now it can be self-help or mental health related, it doesn't have to be. It can be a novel, can be fiction. And if you can't think of a book, an album, song, any piece of popular culture?

SPEAKER_04 54:50

Um if I would speak about my course, there is a book which everyone loves called Games People Play. That's the most fascinating book I read within the course. I love it. There are many others, but it's a short answer.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Okay. If there was a mantra in life that summed up your mental health, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_04 55:13

Return to balance. I think it's mighty much related to what we discussed before. There are so many triggers or situations which pulls us in one side on another. So sit with this, process it, and then reset, come back to the balance.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

What do you love about yourself? The whole piece. Come on, give me a few traits. Come on, come on. Everyone struggles with this one.

SPEAKER_04 55:41

Um and I believe I mentioned already uh the intuition, empathy, compassion towards others. If I lost the compassion, I had to stop and just think, wow, wow, what is happening from myself? Probably those are three qualities I really admire in myself.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

There we go. We got there, we got there. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

I tried to sneak.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Yeah, I know you did. And as a final question, Elena, you can answer it any way you want. What more do you think we have to do to ensure people from all backgrounds, all nationalities, all walks of life feel comfortable and safe in opening up about their mental health issues or just their general mental health if most importantly they want to do it?

SPEAKER_04 56:28

Hmm. I think we just have to normalize our human being experiences. Everything is normal. To be in crisis is normal. To be distressed is okay. To be anxious is okay. It's just a part of our life. Then it I believe it's become not that terrifying to speak about us.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Lena, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the Just Check In podcast and talking to me.

SPEAKER_04 56:55

Oh, thank you, Freddie. I really appreciate you inviting me and your great listener. Thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Well, that's all we've got time for on this episode of the Just Check In pod. A big thank you to Elena for being my special guest and for letting me check in with her. I'll put some links to where you can find out more about OL psychotherapy and consulting in the show notes as always. As always, thank you to all the vendors who've tuned into this episode. Remember, if you've liked what you've heard, please give it a share on social media by tagging us at VentHelp UK. Tell your friends, family, or work colleagues about us. If you're feeling generous, write us a review and give us a five-star rating in Apple Podcasts and help us out with the algorithms, or give us a five-star rating on Spotify. If you want to support us further, go to patreon.com slash ventshelpuk or make a one-off donation to our PayPal. All of those links are on our link tree. That's linktr.ee slash vent helpuk. We hope to kill you again very soon. And remember, guys, it is always okay to vent.